Let’s have a war!

[NewtonHawk11]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukrainian-fa ... 02433.html

As a father of a daughter who is 8, same age as the girl killed by Russian mortars in this story/picture, it's getting to the point that I'm just physically sick. New York Times posting that picture on the front page either today or tomorrow.

I just can't but thinking of these poor kids. Panicked, scared, seeing and hearing things they should see or hear.

[jhawks99]

apparently, putin is now demanding the nuclear disarming of europe

wait, what? i thought this was all about nazis and breakaway Ukrainian regions…

All signs (very very very much including designating anything more aggressive than looking at Russia funny being a declaration of war) point to Putin finally grasping the fundamental weakness of Russia's position here. Easy for me to say here in my riskless chair, but the right play for EU/NATO is to stay the course.

Just keep squeezing tighter and tighter until his freaking eyes pop out. Putin's demands are already at the absurd level. Sounds like decades of steroid use is finally catching up with him.

This may be a bad thing. This song keeps ringing in my head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsM_VmN6ytk

[twocoach]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukrainian-fa ... 02433.html

As a father of a daughter who is 8, same age as the girl killed by Russian mortars in this story/picture, it's getting to the point that I'm just physically sick. New York Times posting that picture on the front page either today or tomorrow.

I just can't but thinking of these poor kids. Panicked, scared, seeing and hearing things they should see or hear.

My heart aches for all of the innocent people who are under siege. They didn't do anything to warrant these acts of terrorism unleashed within their sovereign borders.

[japhy]

apparently, putin is now demanding the nuclear disarming of europe

wait, what? i thought this was all about nazis and breakaway Ukrainian regions…

All signs (very very very much including designating anything more aggressive than looking at Russia funny being a declaration of war) point to Putin finally grasping the fundamental weakness of Russia's position here. Easy for me to say here in my riskless chair, but the right play for EU/NATO is to stay the course.

Just keep squeezing tighter and tighter until his freaking eyes pop out. Putin's demands are already at the absurd level. Sounds like decades of steroid use is finally catching up with him.

Remove sanctions? Sure, and you will agree to pay war reparations to Ukraine.

Putin flinched. Reality sunk in.

The inevitable military loss in Ukraine was too much. Amend the Ukrainian Constitution, OK, for now.

How long can Putin keep his internal equivalent of Fox News watching zombies from finding out the truth about what happened? Once they realize their finances won't bounce back after sanctions are removed they are not going to be happy. And removing sanctions is just part 1. Next the Russians have to gain trust with western sources of investment by convincing people that the risk of investing over there has value that won't be destroyed based upon Empirial fever dreams on a moments notice when a madmen feels that history is passing him by before he had time to fulfill his destiny.

putin fucked up. trump probably still thinks he is a genius.

[jfish26]

All signs (very very very much including designating anything more aggressive than looking at Russia funny being a declaration of war) point to Putin finally grasping the fundamental weakness of Russia's position here. Easy for me to say here in my riskless chair, but the right play for EU/NATO is to stay the course.

Just keep squeezing tighter and tighter until his freaking eyes pop out. Putin's demands are already at the absurd level. Sounds like decades of steroid use is finally catching up with him.

Remove sanctions? Sure, and you will agree to pay war reparations to Ukraine.

Putin flinched. Reality sunk in.

The inevitable military loss in Ukraine was too much. Amend the Ukrainian Constitution, OK, for now.

How long can Putin keep his internal equivalent of Fox News watching zombies from finding out the truth about what happened? Once they realize their finances won't bounce back after sanctions are removed they are not going to be happy. And removing sanctions is just part 1. Next the Russians have to gain trust with western sources of investment by convincing people that the risk of investing over there has value that won't be destroyed based upon Empirial fever dreams on a moments notice when a madmen feels that history is passing him by before he had time to fulfill his destiny.

putin fucked up. trump probably still thinks he is a genius.

The most rational, unifying explanation is that, being isolated and unwilling to listen to things he doesn't want to hear (sound familiar?), Putin gravely overestimated the readiness and capabilities of his own military, and gravely underestimated (1) Ukraine's capabilities and resolve, and (2) NATO/EU's cohesion.

[japhy]

Just keep squeezing tighter and tighter until his freaking eyes pop out. Putin's demands are already at the absurd level. Sounds like decades of steroid use is finally catching up with him.

Remove sanctions? Sure, and you will agree to pay war reparations to Ukraine.

Putin flinched. Reality sunk in.

The inevitable military loss in Ukraine was too much. Amend the Ukrainian Constitution, OK, for now.

How long can Putin keep his internal equivalent of Fox News watching zombies from finding out the truth about what happened? Once they realize their finances won't bounce back after sanctions are removed they are not going to be happy. And removing sanctions is just part 1. Next the Russians have to gain trust with western sources of investment by convincing people that the risk of investing over there has value that won't be destroyed based upon Empirial fever dreams on a moments notice when a madmen feels that history is passing him by before he had time to fulfill his destiny.

putin fucked up. trump probably still thinks he is a genius.

The most rational, unifying explanation is that, being isolated and unwilling to listen to things he doesn't want to hear (sound familiar?), Putin gravely overestimated the readiness and capabilities of his own military, and gravely underestimated (1) Ukraine's capabilities and resolve, and (2) NATO/EU's cohesion.

From what I read and hear that seems to be the best explanation. One of the things my brother-in-law Colonel Illiniwok has stressed is that the US Military makes sure every argument against an action gets made and heard. Because without hearing the opposition you can't make a rational decision to move forward. It seems to be a basic character flaw in sociopaths that they only listen to their own side of a conflict. And lack of serious consequences emboldens them.

I suspect there is some truth to all of the whispers about putin having health problems and this would be part of the equation. When someone this focused on a life goal, sees it about to elude them, they may get impatient. putin thought this plan was "now or never". He couldn't wait to see if trump won in 2024 and pulled us out of NATO. It was an "all or nothing" play.

And putin's action created his worst nightmare. A stronger, more committed NATO. He did not see that coming. All of those decades of work trying to break up and weaken NATO by less obvious means, and it all went down the shitter in one week. Poor, poor, Vladimir; maybe trump and fucker Carlson will buy him a drink while Ron Johnson shines their shoes.

[KUTradition]

it seems the unified support extends beyond just NATO

but maybe i’m just drinking the pentagon koolaid

[jfish26]

it seems the unified support extends beyond just NATO

but maybe i’m just drinking the pentagon koolaid

Really need India to get on board (I am assuming we will not do something as bold as offer China a trade package it can't turn down).

[japhy]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukrainian-fa ... 02433.html

As a father of a daughter who is 8, same age as the girl killed by Russian mortars in this story/picture, it's getting to the point that I'm just physically sick. New York Times posting that picture on the front page either today or tomorrow.

I just can't but thinking of these poor kids. Panicked, scared, seeing and hearing things they should see or hear.

The ability to visualize your own children into the events is the toughest part of being a parent. I still vividly remember dropping my girls off at daycare and then driving into the City and seeing military jets flying in every direction over downtown on 9/11. Should I turn around and get them and bring them home? Would that be better than them sitting in daycare watching Disney videos?

And kids never forget certain traumas.

One day I was talking to my daughters about our life back when we lived in the "hood". My daughters said, "remember that time we were going to Nanny and Poppa's for Easter and two people walked up and killed the guy in the car in front of us on the street and they ran away while his car kept rolling and he fell out the door, that was really fucked up!" Uhm yeah, but I took off like a bat our of hell to get us out of range any subsequent gunfire without saying a word, how did you two see that and know what it was?

I talked with my mom last night on the phone. She has Alzheimer's really bad and can't remember where she is or even who I am for most of the conversation. The subject of my grandfather came up. She was 4 or 5 when her grandparents took her and two siblings away from him. My mom remembers him shut them in a closet and laughing while they cried and screamed in fright. She also remembers the last time my grandfather puts hands on my grandmother; he had her by the hair and was holding her face over the burner of the kitchen stove while they were sitting at the kitchen table waiting for dinner. Right after that incident a Catholic priest showed up at their house and told my grandmother she needed to move to Chicago and never come back. The kids would stay with her parents, and her husband would keep the farm and be free to go about his business like nothing happened. My name, where she was, who my siblings were and where they lived, why she lived in this place; all of that was a fog. But she could recall those incidents from 80 years ago clear as day last night.

The kids who witnessed these events will never be the same.

[sdoyel]

https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/150 ... 01984?s=21

[Qusdahl]

That is a good question.

The answer is quite the can of worms in itself, tho this article appears to be a good start:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/14/opin ... ummit.html

thanks for not answering any of my questions, lobs

good job

Yesterday my brother was in town and I had the day off and I didn’t wanna spend it digging for links no one is likely to read anyway just so we can bicker about them on the internet. My bad.

So when I said “a good start” I meant to indicate maybe this can be a good start toward an actual dialogue. But maybe not. Like I said, it’s a can of worms either way, and not necessarily the kind of thing we’re gonna get to the bottom of with a few message bored posts, especially not with the wrong attitude or mindset.

Sorry if you feel I didn’t answer your questions specifically enough. Fwiw I also get the feeling you haven’t read that link, or hardly anything I’ve posted in this thread. Bummer! That seems to be an obstacle toward dialogue. I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on much of it, tho I also don’t wanna pry.

But, since you brought it up, and since you seem to disregard so much else I’ve tried to discuss, and since I’m concerned about the analogy, and since I’d like to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant something constructive by it, now I’m curious:

Would you like to compare and contrast me and the crustacean?

[Qusdahl]

I honestly haven't seen anything Putin (fuck him) said directly about Baker-Gorbachev. It's just added context to why Russia is so nervous about the US and NATO playing war with Ukrainian volunteer militias on Russia's doorstep. But once again, we're supposed to downplay any context here and pretend this all happened on a whim.

Then honestly, where did you come up with that question? If Putin never said it as a premise to war who did? And why did you bring it up?

There was no "Baker-Gorbachev" agreement that was broken. An agreement is something written and signed. During negotiations a lot of shit gets thrown on the table that gets a verbal "sure, but you have to give us this", and then that request is taken off the table.

Russian President Vladimir Putin and his senior aides have repeatedly claimed that Western powers broke promises they made not to expand NATO as the Soviet Union collapsed.

In his annual end-of-year press conference in Moscow in December, Putin accused NATO of deceiving Russia by giving assurances in the 1990s that it would not expand “an inch to the East” — promises made to Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev during negotiations between the West and the Soviet Union over German unification, the Russian leader said.

“They cheated us — vehemently, blatantly. NATO is expanding,” Putin said. He cited former U.S. Secretary of State James Baker as Exhibit One in his indictment and quoted a remark Baker made to Gorbachev in 1990, saying, “NATO will not move one inch further east.”

The Russian leader has made the claim frequently about NATO skullduggery, accusing Western powers of taking advantage of a weakened, disoriented Russia as the Soviet Union fell apart. And the West’s supposed trickery and violation of a solemn pledge not to expand has figured prominently as an important component in a Putin foreign policy narrative which presents Russia as a victim and aggrieved party.

Russia wasn't "nervous" about anything involving the EU or NATO. NATO has never threatened to invade Russia and the Western money influx is the first prosperity Russia has seen since WWI. Russia did not want to fuck that up. But Putin is a deranged sociopathic killer who is paranoid and worried about everything including his own people. Because he has no friends in Russia or the rest of the world. To be friends there has to be trust, no one can trust Putin.

Now, one more time, why did you bring up Baker-Gorbachev if you know nothing and about it and never heard nothing about it? What did you read and where did it come from to Put this phrase In your head?

Again, much of my opinions are coming from leftist chatter on social media. I’ve been open about that all along. And sorry if there isnt some silver bullet of a news article that might make you accept it - that some folks think US warmongering might do more to escalate wars, rather than mitigate them.

And since it would do no good for me to condemn Putin yet again, and since you know more about me than I know about myself, help me understand:

Why WOULD I suddenly be gulping up the Russian propaganda? What’s my end game here?

[Qusdahl]

And the big question I’m wondering now, and me trying to give us the benefit of the doubt, and what I’d like to invite anyone else to chime in on if they have an opinion or knowledge or a link, is this:

What GOOD has come from much of the last 8 years of the US pushing “lethal aid” into Ukraine?

[jfish26]

And the big question I’m wondering now, and me trying to give us the benefit of the doubt, and what I’d like to invite anyone else to chime in on if they have an opinion or knowledge or a link, is this:

What GOOD has come from much of the last 8 years of the US pushing “lethal aid” into Ukraine?

Well, Ukraine has managed to thus far prevent Russia from, you know, taking over Ukraine. So that's something.

[Overlander]

And the big question I’m wondering now, and me trying to give us the benefit of the doubt, and what I’d like to invite anyone else to chime in on if they have an opinion or knowledge or a link, is this:

What GOOD has come from much of the last 8 years of the US pushing “lethal aid” into Ukraine?

You can’t be serious, can you?

[Qusdahl]

Ok, thanks, yeah, that is something.

Was the escalation of civil war in Ukraine an acceptable collateral damage?

And this is hardly the first time Russia and Ukraine have fought. Why’d we get so involved now?

[jfish26]

Ok, thanks, yeah, that is something.

Was the escalation of civil war in Ukraine an acceptable collateral damage?

And this is hardly the first time Russia and Ukraine have fought. Why’d we get so involved now?

Civil war? Are you posting from Leningrad? The hell is going on.

[MICHHAWK]

i liked comrade oushdale better yesterday.

[Qusdahl]

Since Japhy has yet to chime in, same question for fish.

Why would I suddenly go all pro-Russian propaganda here? What’s my end game?

Can anyone help me vet this source? Wikipedia says the council on foreign relations is a United States nonprofit think tank specializing in U.S. foreign policy and international affairs.

It estimates more than 50000 casualties in Ukraine from 2014-21, and $2.5 billion in U.S. “security assistance” to Ukraine since 2014.

Or is this Russian propaganda too?

https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tra ... ct-ukraine

[japhy]

Why WOULD I suddenly be gulping up the Russian propaganda? What’s my end game here?

I think that is the question we are all wanting to hear answered.

There is only one person who knows the answer to that question. When you have the answer let us know.