Israel/Palestine

[Shirley]

There are some very disturbing videos of the "billy clubs" being wielded in the Mosque, online*.


*Insert "both sides do it" disclaimer, here _____.

[Shirley]

https://twitter.com/TODAYshow/status/16 ... wsrc%5Etfw

[Mjl]

There are some very disturbing videos of the "billy clubs" being wielded in the Mosque, online*.


*Insert "both sides do it" disclaimer, here _____.

Yes, all of them starting midway through the events that occurred.
Israeli police just entered for no reason and started beating people? Maybe look into the entire event instead of cherry-picking the consequences of actions.

[Shirley]

There are some very disturbing videos of the "billy clubs" being wielded in the Mosque, online*.


*Insert "both sides do it" disclaimer, here _____.

Yes, all of them starting midway through the events that occurred.
Israeli police just entered for no reason and started beating people? Maybe look into the entire event instead of cherry-picking the consequences of actions.

I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth.

I am pro Israel, but Israel often seems to be its own enemy. And although I wish it weren't so, no matter the context, the one video of the whippings and beating inside the Mosque I saw, is disturbing.

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

Here is the problem and million dollar question.
There were both "bad guys"/"terrorists" and "innocent worshipers" around and in the Mosque.
Are the Israeli "soldiers"/"police"/"law enforcement officers" beating the shit out of "bad guys"/"terrorists" or "Innocent worshipers"?
If "bad guys'/"terrorists", I say good for the Israelis.
If "innocent worshipers", I say fuck the Israelis.

[Shirley]

Here is the problem and million dollar question.
There were both "bad guys"/"terrorists" and "innocent worshipers" around and in the Mosque.
Are the Israeli "soldiers"/"police"/"law enforcement officers" beating the shit out of "bad guys"/"terrorists" or "Innocent worshipers"?
If "bad guys'/"terrorists", I say good for the Israelis.
If "innocent worshipers", I say fuck the Israelis.

^^^

I realize by the very nature of the conflict, it's ~ 1,000 x more likely that the reaction by the Israelis to Palestinian violence is going to lend itself to being documented. But, if I saw video of the Palestinians doing the same thing, I'd feel the same way.

[Mjl]

They (Palestinians) did it again last night, desecrating their mosque bringing in fireworks and stones and barricading themselves in past the agreed-upon closing hours. It's trying to get a repeat of a couple days ago, they want their people beaten for the PR.

Israel thankfully (I think, we'll see tomorrow if they start firing the fireworks and stones at Western Wall worshippers like they have all the recent Ramadans) didn't take the bait this time.

Waqf isn't enforcing their own rules.

[Mjl]

There are some very disturbing videos of the "billy clubs" being wielded in the Mosque, online*.


*Insert "both sides do it" disclaimer, here _____.

Yes, all of them starting midway through the events that occurred.
Israeli police just entered for no reason and started beating people? Maybe look into the entire event instead of cherry-picking the consequences of actions.

I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth.

I am pro Israel, but Israel often seems to be its own enemy. And although I wish it weren't so, no matter the context, the one video of the whippings and beating inside the Mosque I saw, is disturbing.

Didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

I have a different reaction to video clips that show a tiny fraction of context. Mine is "I wonder what happened before that".

[ousdahl]

man, what a lot of takes!

too tired to respond to them all tonight. So, for now, let's just ask this:

why state-enforced closing hours at a place of worship?

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

man, what a lot of takes!

too tired to respond to them all tonight. So, for now, let's just ask this:

why state-enforced closing hours at a place of worship?

I'll answer your question after I point out this semi related sidenote.

Israeli "forces" closed the Ibrahimi Mosque in Hebron. Asshole move. Right? Well.....
Here are two ASSUMPTIONS. Either 100% asshole move just to fuck the Muslims or 100% considerate move and did it to protect the Muslim "Worshippers". I'm going to assume it's neither 100% and falls somewhere between 1% one way and 99% the other way.
If you wonder why I would say an ASSUMPTION is they did it to protect the Muslim "worshippers" - do a little research in to what happened there in 1994.

To answer your question to the best of my limited knowledge.
There typically aren't "state-enforced closing hours" at Al-Aqsa - for worshippers.
Unless the worshippers and visitors in and around it are considered to be in danger or a danger to others.

I'm not going to completely exonerate or incriminate the Israeli forces for their excessive behavior.
Very complex situation being simplified by many/most people. No doubt it was a bad look and scene no matter how you slice it.

P.S. As I have stated/shared on here before, as someone who has witnessed in person the ability of Jews, Christians, and Muslims, to co-exist in a less than one mile radius and all be able to pray at the same time without conflict, how is this "simplified by many/most/me" assessment? Israelis need to stop fucking with the Palestinians, Palestinian terrorists need to stop fucking with the Israelis, people need to stop hating on each other because of different religious beliefs, and if/when that happens, peace can be had. As I said, I've witnessed it.

[ousdahl]

Thanks gutter. Your side note corroborates my concern.

I was also gonna express concern about how the situation is prob only made worse by your and my tax dollars furnishing billions worth of…uh, fireworks and stones, but we’ve mentioned that before.

And POTthread/entire world that we can co-exist and peace can be had. For real, let’s make it happen!

Now, most of my other questions had more to do with just how all-time godawful many of mjl’s takes are here, but he has me on ignore. And besides, maybe the questions are a little antagonistic.

but because he has me on ignore, guess I can just not worry about antagonizing him, and instead just ask things like, why does mjl reject any greater context when it comes to to anything from the war thread to Dajuan appearing tired after we got our butts kicked by Tennessee, yet so promptly preach the importance of context when it comes to things like *checks notes*, trying to justify paramilitary forces pounding on religious folks in a place of worship?

And, for a dood who literally just got called out for putting words in other’s mouths, boy is he quick to tell Palestinians how the Palestinians feel about the situation!

Like for real - have we ever, in the long sad history of the pols bored, had a take quite like, “they want their people beaten for the PR.”

holy smokes!

[Mjl]

man, what a lot of takes!

too tired to respond to them all tonight. So, for now, let's just ask this:

why state-enforced closing hours at a place of worship?

I'll answer your question after I point out this semi related sidenote.

Israeli "forces" closed the Ibrahimi Mosque in Hebron. Asshole move. Right? Well.....
Here are two ASSUMPTIONS. Either 100% asshole move just to fuck the Muslims or 100% considerate move and did it to protect the Muslim "Worshippers". I'm going to assume it's neither 100% and falls somewhere between 1% one way and 99% the other way.
If you wonder why I would say an ASSUMPTION is they did it to protect the Muslim "worshippers" - do a little research in to what happened there in 1994.

To answer your question to the best of my limited knowledge.
There typically aren't "state-enforced closing hours" at Al-Aqsa - for worshippers.
Unless the worshippers and visitors in and around it are considered to be in danger or a danger to others.

I'm not going to completely exonerate or incriminate the Israeli forces for their excessive behavior.
Very complex situation being simplified by many/most people. No doubt it was a bad look and scene no matter how you slice it.

P.S. As I have stated/shared on here before, as someone who has witnessed in person the ability of Jews, Christians, and Muslims, to co-exist in a less than one mile radius and all be able to pray at the same time without conflict, how is this "simplified by many/most/me" assessment? Israelis need to stop fucking with the Palestinians, Palestinian terrorists need to stop fucking with the Israelis, people need to stop hating on each other because of different religious beliefs, and if/when that happens, peace can be had. As I said, I've witnessed it.

The bold part is only accurate the last ten days of Ramadan.
The Al Aqsa compound, aka the Temple Mount, can be visited by Jews during a few hours weekday mornings. To ensure their protection, only certain specific people are allowed to stay overnight in Al Aqsa. The last ten days of Ramadan Israel does not allow Jews to go to the Temple Mount, so worshippers (or otherwise) are allowed to stay overnight.

[ousdahl]

Mjl’s take too corroborates my concern - that there’s some question of religious freedom here, in a country that otherwise gets championed as the only democracy in the Middle East.

I saw one take that maybe that’s what prompted the Palestinians to barricade - though mjl says Jews aren’t allowed in the past 10 days of Ramadan, some fundamentalist Jews planned to show up anyway and ritualistically sacrifice a goat as some Passover tradition.

There also may be some question of traditional overnight worship by Muslims during Ramadan.

To that, and getting back to the previous analogy - how would it be received in Merica if a group of fundamentalist Jews showed up with a goat at a Sunday church service? Or if a bunch of cops showed up and started kicking people’s asses at an easter vigil?

[Shirley]

If I were running for office, (or had a product to advertise), I would definitely look into who produced these incredible commercials:

https://youtu.be/2R1ZVygVHwk

https://youtu.be/FmPjzwB0EwY

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

If I were running for office, (or had a product to advertise), I would definitely look into who produced these incredible commercials:

https://youtu.be/2R1ZVygVHwk

https://youtu.be/FmPjzwB0EwY

A guy that I know and had a lot of admiration for helped "produce" them. Many people rightfully lost respect for the man when he became involved in cheap massages.

https://www.standuptojewishhate.org

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/rob ... -campaign/

[Shirley]

Apr 22, 2023 9 Hours ago #CNN #News

CNN's Wolf Blitzer and Dana Bash travel to Poland to commemorate the 80th anniversary of the start of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. They tour the Nazi death camp where they both had Jewish relatives die at the hands of Nazis

https://youtu.be/Ln4qCv6M4ek

(I've never particularly cared for either of these people as news hosts, but I'll never see them again, the same way as before.)

[Mjl]

Happy 75th birthday to Israel.

Before Israel there was the Holocaust, pogroms, dhimmis, Inquisition, communism, and on and on and on.

While anti-Semitism is still a big issue in the world, the state-sponsored oppression of Jews is nearly gone. When it was happening in MENA, Israel took in all the refugees. When the Soviet Union finally allowed their Jews to leave, Israel took in a great deal of the refugees.

This is why Israel needs to exist, and it needs to exist as a Jewish majority nation.

[ousdahl]

Actually bro, maybe the world would be better off by instead trying to dial back state-sponsored ethnic majorities in general.

Or, if we just extend the thought anyway - how should the world go about picking and choosing which ethnicities deserve their own states, and which don’t?

But go figure, mjl won’t even read that.

[KUTradition]

i’ve got no issue with Israel being a “Jewish nation”

what bothers me are the reports of hostility and discrimination towards secular Jews and non-Jews

[Mjl]

A plurality of Israeli Jews are secular. How are they discriminated against? Just that they have to serve in the military (which Arabs and ultra-orthodox Jews are allowed to but don't have to do)?

There are definitely some racist Israelis. There are racists in every country.

Non-Israelis are treated differently. Arab Israelis (Muslims, Christians, Druze) have full rights though.