NBA Offseason

[Deleted User 266]

Doesn't he have 9 NBA Finals appearances and 3 NBA titles? Seems like he is doing just fine.

To you and I maybe it seems like he's doing just fine but to the Heat fans he thought he was going to win 8 championships for - maybe not so much.
If you're going to talk the talk it's best to walk the walk - because if you don't, fair or not, you're going to be considered a failure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9BqUBYaHlM

That's as silly as holding a politician to every promise they made at every campaign stop in every town of their campaign. That's guys getting a crowd hyped, not predicting the future. Yeesh.

I don't disagree with you. Problem is there are some that do.

[LVCHawk]

The game is so nuanced that it's hard to call one guy the greatest player. To me, Jordan is the best modern day scorer and competitor while James is the better overall player. It's a totally different NBA now than it was in MJ's days. Heck, the whole NBA changed in the middle of MJ's career with the early departure of Bird and Magic along with massive expansion.

MJ wins the "right guy at the right time" award for sure, though. He was the perfect athlete for the sport at the time. No athlete since Ali has benefitted more by the changing media and culture of his times.

I"m jumping in at the very end of this annual offseason GOAT conversation, but this comment makes me think you didn't really watch MJ play. He'd dominate now the way the rules are and how open and free scoring is. The only part of his game that doesn't match up with today's NBA was shooting the 3 since it wasn't as much a part of the game as it is now, but he'd no doubt have worked on it psychotically till he was deadly at that as well. Also because he was an a-hole he'd probably mentally beat down half the "stars" in the league, especially those that weren't in playoff mode all season.

[pdub]

I don't disagree with you. Problem is there are some that do.

Problem to whom?

[Cascadia]

The game is so nuanced that it's hard to call one guy the greatest player. To me, Jordan is the best modern day scorer and competitor while James is the better overall player. It's a totally different NBA now than it was in MJ's days. Heck, the whole NBA changed in the middle of MJ's career with the early departure of Bird and Magic along with massive expansion.

MJ wins the "right guy at the right time" award for sure, though. He was the perfect athlete for the sport at the time. No athlete since Ali has benefitted more by the changing media and culture of his times.

I"m jumping in at the very end of this annual offseason GOAT conversation, but this comment makes me think you didn't really watch MJ play. He'd dominate now the way the rules are and how open and free scoring is. The only part of his game that doesn't match up with today's NBA was shooting the 3 since it wasn't as much a part of the game as it is now, but he'd no doubt have worked on it psychotically till he was deadly at that as well. Also because he was an a-hole he'd probably mentally beat down half the "stars" in the league, especially those that weren't in playoff mode all season.

This guy gets it

[ousdahl]

in hindsight that Miami Heat Welcome Party was pretty ridiculous.

How often do star/s do shit like that? Hold some self-hype rally? Just to celebrate a team change? and it's not even like the whole team is out there, just the 3 dudes.

but give props where props are due: the marching band with the cheerleaders make it worth the hype.

[Deleted User 266]

I don't disagree with you. Problem is there are some that do.

Problem to whom?

Those who hold a politician to every promise they made at every campaign stop in every town of their campaign.
Those who allowed themselves to get hyped to the point where they actually believed LeBron when regardless if he was actually predicting the future or not - stated he and the Heat were going to win 8 Championships.
Again, fair or not, realistic or not, those people often end up being disappointed.

[pdub]

LeBron is not a politician.
He's a professional athlete making millions.
Why does it matter if some idiot thinks that, in a hype talk where LeBron was joking ( you can see Dwayne Wade laughing ), the Heat were going to win 8 championships?

[pdub]

He'd dominate now the way the rules are and how open and free scoring is. The only part of his game that doesn't match up with today's NBA was shooting the 3 since it wasn't as much a part of the game as it is now, but he'd no doubt have worked on it psychotically till he was deadly at that as well.

This same argument is countered by the fact that the league ( early 90s ) wasn't as good as it is today.
Not as much skill. Not as much talent. Not as much athleticism.
Can't really be proven - so that's why people have to look for records and rings.

[ousdahl]

LeBron is not a politician.
He's a professional athlete making millions.
Why does it matter if some idiot thinks that, in a hype talk where LeBron was joking ( you can see Dwayne Wade laughing ), the Heat were going to win 8 championships?

cuz you’re right that athletes are not politicians. (Except maybe Jesse Ventura?)

Either way maybe athletes simply shouldn’t host so many campaign rallies?

[ousdahl]

He'd dominate now the way the rules are and how open and free scoring is. The only part of his game that doesn't match up with today's NBA was shooting the 3 since it wasn't as much a part of the game as it is now, but he'd no doubt have worked on it psychotically till he was deadly at that as well.

This same argument is countered by the fact that the league ( early 90s ) wasn't as good as it is today.
Not as much skill. Not as much talent. Not as much athleticism.
Can't really be proven - so that's why people have to look for records and rings.

Can this sort of be proven?

Bigger talent pool with more international stars, better strength and conditioning, maybe even statistical trends, etc

[pdub]

Either way maybe athletes simply shouldn’t host so many campaign rallies?

In full agreement there.

[pdub]

In the 90's, Udoka would be a first round draft pick.
Patrick Ewing would be terrified.
Chris Mullin vs Klay Thompson. LOLZ.

[PhDhawk]

cuz you’re right that athletes are not politicians. (Except maybe Jesse Ventura?)

Bill Bradley
Jack Kemp
Heath Shuler
Kevin Johnson
JC Watts
Steve Largent
Jim Ryun
Manny Pacquiao
Gerald Ford

[CrimsonNBlue]

He'd dominate now the way the rules are and how open and free scoring is. The only part of his game that doesn't match up with today's NBA was shooting the 3 since it wasn't as much a part of the game as it is now, but he'd no doubt have worked on it psychotically till he was deadly at that as well.

This same argument is countered by the fact that the league ( early 90s ) wasn't as good as it is today.
Not as much skill. Not as much talent. Not as much athleticism.
Can't really be proven - so that's why people have to look for records and rings.

Can this sort of be proven?

Bigger talent pool with more international stars, better strength and conditioning, maybe even statistical trends, etc

Deeper talent pool, for sure. The #13 guy is ridiculously better now than in the 90's.

Top tier talent/skill is the same, though. Watch videos of Mark Price. That guy would have killed in today's pick and roll game. Your starting 5's are roughly the same since about the early 80's when everyone agrees that the modern NBA era started.

The best transcend time. There are only a couple eras where that's not true, basically the 50's and into the early to mid 60's which is sort of the equivalent of the dead-ball era in baseball (which is why Oscar Robertson is so overrated).

[pdub]

"Top tier talent/skill is the same, though."

LOL.
Chris Mullin makes 1st team NBA.
Klay Thompson can't crack the 3rd team.
Mark Price?!

Get outta here.

[ousdahl]

cuz you’re right that athletes are not politicians. (Except maybe Jesse Ventura?)

Bill Bradley
Jack Kemp
Heath Shuler
Kevin Johnson
JC Watts
Steve Largent
Jim Ryun
Manny Pacquiao
Gerald Ford

[twocoach]

The game is so nuanced that it's hard to call one guy the greatest player. To me, Jordan is the best modern day scorer and competitor while James is the better overall player. It's a totally different NBA now than it was in MJ's days. Heck, the whole NBA changed in the middle of MJ's career with the early departure of Bird and Magic along with massive expansion.

MJ wins the "right guy at the right time" award for sure, though. He was the perfect athlete for the sport at the time. No athlete since Ali has benefitted more by the changing media and culture of his times.

I"m jumping in at the very end of this annual offseason GOAT conversation, but this comment makes me think you didn't really watch MJ play. He'd dominate now the way the rules are and how open and free scoring is. The only part of his game that doesn't match up with today's NBA was shooting the 3 since it wasn't as much a part of the game as it is now, but he'd no doubt have worked on it psychotically till he was deadly at that as well. Also because he was an a-hole he'd probably mentally beat down half the "stars" in the league, especially those that weren't in playoff mode all season.

The last few NBA seasons has seen a big spike in scoring, up from 100ppg in '15 to 102 in '16, 105 in '17 and 106 in '18.

The average NBA score in Jordan's rookie season was 110ppg and didnt drop below 105ppg until 1993. But yeah, go on about how much more "open and free" things are now.

The last few NBA seasons has seen a big spike in average pace, from a sluggish average around 90-93 possessions per 48 mins starting in the early 2000s to about 2015 then climbing to 95.8 in '16, 96.4 in '17 and 97.3 in '18.

The average pace in Jordan's rookie season was 102 possessions per 48, and slowly dropped until finally dropping below 95 in 1994.

So scoring was higher and the pace was faster back in Jordan's heyday. This makes me think that your point of view has been tampered with, clouded over by decades of highlight reels and 30 for 30 shows full of defensive clotheslines and full on scrums.

The perception of it is that it was tougher to score in Jordan's days because the NBA was....tougher. The reality of it is that it was far easier because defensive schemes were a shell of what they are now in the days of computer generated analytics and scouting reports.

[twocoach]

This same argument is countered by the fact that the league ( early 90s ) wasn't as good as it is today.
Not as much skill. Not as much talent. Not as much athleticism.
Can't really be proven - so that's why people have to look for records and rings.

Can this sort of be proven?

Bigger talent pool with more international stars, better strength and conditioning, maybe even statistical trends, etc

Deeper talent pool, for sure. The #13 guy is ridiculously better now than in the 90's.

Top tier talent/skill is the same, though. Watch videos of Mark Price. That guy would have killed in today's pick and roll game. Your starting 5's are roughly the same since about the early 80's when everyone agrees that the modern NBA era started.

The best transcend time. There are only a couple eras where that's not true, basically the 50's and into the early to mid 60's which is sort of the equivalent of the dead-ball era in baseball (which is why Oscar Robertson is so overrated).

Mark Price looked good because defenses sucked and guys were smaller. He was a generous 6'0 and 170 pounds. Go find the most talented 6'0 170 PG in today's game and see how they fare.

The all time best such and Oscar Robertson, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, transcend time. The random all stars of the time do not.

[CrimsonNBlue]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ clearly did not watch the NBA until LeBron ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Read up on handchecking, it's like 1 minute of research.

[CrimsonNBlue]

Can this sort of be proven?

Bigger talent pool with more international stars, better strength and conditioning, maybe even statistical trends, etc

Deeper talent pool, for sure. The #13 guy is ridiculously better now than in the 90's.

Top tier talent/skill is the same, though. Watch videos of Mark Price. That guy would have killed in today's pick and roll game. Your starting 5's are roughly the same since about the early 80's when everyone agrees that the modern NBA era started.

The best transcend time. There are only a couple eras where that's not true, basically the 50's and into the early to mid 60's which is sort of the equivalent of the dead-ball era in baseball (which is why Oscar Robertson is so overrated).

Mark Price looked good because defenses sucked and guys were smaller. He was a generous 6'0 and 170 pounds. Go find the most talented 6'0 170 PG in today's game and see how they fare.

The all time best such and Oscar Robertson, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, transcend time. The random all stars of the time do not.

Doubling down.

Cascadia was right.