Classics

Kansas Basketball.
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pdub
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Re: Classics

Post by pdub »

Then it's pretty bad, almost trolling bad.

Player A: 20.9 PPG, 4.2 RPG, 5.2 APG, 2.4 TO/PG, 1.3 SPG, 49% FG, 47% 3FG, 79 FT%. NPOY. 1st team AA unanimous. B12POY. Big 12 All Defensive.

Player B: 16.6 PPG, 2.3 RPG, 4.8 APG, 3.5 TO/PG, 1.3 SPG, 47% FG, 38% 3FG, 72% FT. 3rd team AA on 2 teams. 1st team All Big 12.
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Cascadia
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Re: Classics

Post by Cascadia »

I just don’t overvalue seniors and fat little engines that couldn’t
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Re: Classics

Post by jfish26 »

pdub wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:53 am Chalmers 08 season was better than Tyshawn's 12 ( entire season ).
Same with Devon's season.
Same with Sherron's 09 season.
Certainly same with Vonte's 2018 season.
Nah. Each of my t-2 guys made an AA team. Mario didn't.

Was he good enough to? Sure. But he never individually had a year that was as good as the best season for the t-2 guys.
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Re: Classics

Post by jfish26 »

Cascadia wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:11 am I just don’t overvalue seniors and fat little engines that couldn’t
To be clear, Sherron does better in the "peak" analysis than he does the "career" analysis. Only Frank had a better peak than Sherron's junior season.
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Re: Classics

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Statically Chalmers 08 season was better than Ty's.
You are looking simply at PPG.
And then not factoring in 1st team All B12 defense ( nor him hitting the biggest shot in Kansas BB history ).

Chalmers being on a stacked team was not unlike both Dok and Dot not making a 1st team this season.

I think you used win shares in the past as well as a metric for comparison.
08 Chalmers > Ty 12 in win shares.
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Re: Classics

Post by jfish26 »

pdub wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:23 am Statically Chalmers 08 season was better than Ty's.
You are looking simply at PPG.
And then not factoring in 1st team All B12 defense.

Chalmers being on a stacked team was not unlike both Dok and Dot not making a 1st team this season.

I think you used win shares in the past as well as a metric for comparison.
08 Chalmers > Ty 12 in win shares.
Ty gets lots of extra credit for just how much was on his shoulders that season. I have no doubt Chalmers could have done it, if he'd been in that position. But he wasn't, so he didn't.
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Re: Classics

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jfish26 wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:19 am
Cascadia wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:11 am I just don’t overvalue seniors and fat little engines that couldn’t
To be clear, Sherron does better in the "peak" analysis than he does the "career" analysis. Only Frank had a better peak than Sherron's junior season.
Well that's not right either.

Player A:
18.9 PPG, 2.9 RPG, 5 APG, 3.3 TO/PG, 1.1 SPG, 43% FG, 38% 3FG.

Player B:
17.3 PPG, 4 RPG, 7.2 APG, 2.8 TO/PG, 1.6 SPG, 46% FG, 41% 3FG.
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Re: Classics

Post by Cascadia »

jfish26 wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:19 am
Cascadia wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:11 am I just don’t overvalue seniors and fat little engines that couldn’t
To be clear, Sherron does better in the "peak" analysis than he does the "career" analysis. Only Frank had a better peak than Sherron's junior season.
I completely disagree. I remember calling my brother after the Michigan State game and telling him it was time for Sherron to go. I didn’t give a fuck where he went, just gtfo.

You can always shape stats to fit whatever argument you are making but you’re never comparing apples to apples. Different roles, different teams, different styles, different eras, different teammates, different schedules etc.

Sherron is, was and always will be a short, fat little shit with an awful attitude. No thanks on leading a team.
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Re: Classics

Post by CrimsonNBlue »

Cascadia wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:33 amYou can always shape stats to fit whatever argument you are making but you’re never comparing apples to apples. Different roles, different teams, different styles, different eras, different teammates, different schedules etc.
^^^^^
Even awards work that way.
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Re: Classics

Post by Cascadia »

CrimsonNBlue wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:40 am
Cascadia wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:33 amYou can always shape stats to fit whatever argument you are making but you’re never comparing apples to apples. Different roles, different teams, different styles, different eras, different teammates, different schedules etc.
^^^^^
Even awards work that way.
Yup. Frank Mason is a better basketball player than Magic Johnson.

Because, Naismith Award!!!!!

And just think about how badly TJ Ford would school Magic! Or Jimmer!
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Re: Classics

Post by CrimsonNBlue »

Cascadia wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:47 am
CrimsonNBlue wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:40 am
Cascadia wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:33 amYou can always shape stats to fit whatever argument you are making but you’re never comparing apples to apples. Different roles, different teams, different styles, different eras, different teammates, different schedules etc.
^^^^^
Even awards work that way.
Yup. Frank Mason is a better basketball player than Magic Johnson.

Because, Naismith Award!!!!!

And just think about how badly TJ Ford would school Magic! Or Jimmer!
Well, we're going down a road that I have no desire to rehash again, and I don't see how anyone could leave Frank Mason out of Bill Self's top 5 players all time.

But, to your point, the 2nd and 3rd place vote getters in 2017 for the Naismith were Caleb Swanigan and Lonzo Ball. Especially when you compare to a player in the 80's/90's, it's just different.
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pdub
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Re: Classics

Post by pdub »

You don't really have to 'shape' stats.
Stuff like win shares or PER or defensive metrics, sure.

So you use stats and awards in these arguments over subjective eye tests where someone thinks Sherron Collins is fat so he sucks.
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Re: Classics

Post by jfish26 »

CrimsonNBlue wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:52 am
Cascadia wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:47 am
CrimsonNBlue wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:40 am

^^^^^
Even awards work that way.
Yup. Frank Mason is a better basketball player than Magic Johnson.

Because, Naismith Award!!!!!

And just think about how badly TJ Ford would school Magic! Or Jimmer!
Well, we're going down a road that I have no desire to rehash again, and I don't see how anyone could leave Frank Mason out of Bill Self's top 5 players all time.

But, to your point, the 2nd and 3rd place vote getters in 2017 for the Naismith were Caleb Swanigan and Lonzo Ball. Especially when you compare to a player in the 80's/90's, it's just different.
I don't know - as we know, Bill's time here started at the very beginning of the one-and-done era. I think that period of time is stable enough where there's just not a reasonable argument for anyone but Frank.
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Re: Classics

Post by Geezer »

Cascadia wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:33 am
jfish26 wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:19 am
Cascadia wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:11 am I just don’t overvalue seniors and fat little engines that couldn’t
To be clear, Sherron does better in the "peak" analysis than he does the "career" analysis. Only Frank had a better peak than Sherron's junior season.
I completely disagree. I remember calling my brother after the Michigan State game and telling him it was time for Sherron to go. I didn’t give a fuck where he went, just gtfo.

You can always shape stats to fit whatever argument you are making but you’re never comparing apples to apples. Different roles, different teams, different styles, different eras, different teammates, different schedules etc.

Sherron is, was and always will be a short, fat little shit with an awful attitude. No thanks on leading a team.
Somebody has more jewelry than the others.
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Re: Classics

Post by CrimsonNBlue »

jfish26 wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:12 pm
CrimsonNBlue wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:52 am
Cascadia wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:47 am

Yup. Frank Mason is a better basketball player than Magic Johnson.

Because, Naismith Award!!!!!

And just think about how badly TJ Ford would school Magic! Or Jimmer!
Well, we're going down a road that I have no desire to rehash again, and I don't see how anyone could leave Frank Mason out of Bill Self's top 5 players all time.

But, to your point, the 2nd and 3rd place vote getters in 2017 for the Naismith were Caleb Swanigan and Lonzo Ball. Especially when you compare to a player in the 80's/90's, it's just different.
I don't know - as we know, Bill's time here started at the very beginning of the one-and-done era. I think that period of time is stable enough where there's just not a reasonable argument for anyone but Frank.
If Frank plays in the same season as Zion Williamon, Anthony Davis, Jalen Brunson, he finishes 2nd in voting, just like Devonte'. Even Sherron did pretty well in NPOY voting. That's where what looks like an objective measure just is not completely.

Stats, awards, Final Fours, Championships, whatever, a handful of guys were fantastic. Make a list, and it's probably fine--so long as Naadir is last.
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Re: Classics

Post by ousdahl »

If only Sherron spent as much time training as he did eating threads on the satellite bored.
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Re: Classics

Post by CrimsonNBlue »

ousdahl wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:31 pm If only Sherron spent as much time training as he did eating threads on the satellite bored.
If we want to get into the completely subjective, on a talent scale, Sherron's probably at the top. Baller.

We got 100% out of what Frank could offer and become. Sherron, not even close.
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Re: Classics

Post by jfish26 »

CrimsonNBlue wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:22 pm
jfish26 wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:12 pm
CrimsonNBlue wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:52 am

Well, we're going down a road that I have no desire to rehash again, and I don't see how anyone could leave Frank Mason out of Bill Self's top 5 players all time.

But, to your point, the 2nd and 3rd place vote getters in 2017 for the Naismith were Caleb Swanigan and Lonzo Ball. Especially when you compare to a player in the 80's/90's, it's just different.
I don't know - as we know, Bill's time here started at the very beginning of the one-and-done era. I think that period of time is stable enough where there's just not a reasonable argument for anyone but Frank.
If Frank plays in the same season as Zion Williamon, Anthony Davis, Jalen Brunson, he finishes 2nd in voting, just like Devonte'. Even Sherron did pretty well in NPOY voting. That's where what looks like an objective measure just is not completely.

Stats, awards, Final Fours, Championships, whatever, a handful of guys were fantastic. Make a list, and it's probably fine--so long as Naadir is last.
I just don't see it this way. He won the damn things, pretty much all of them. For that particular season of college basketball, he was the dude. That carries a lot of weight with me.
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Re: Classics

Post by NDballer13 »

jfish26 wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:03 pm
CrimsonNBlue wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:22 pm
jfish26 wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:12 pm

I don't know - as we know, Bill's time here started at the very beginning of the one-and-done era. I think that period of time is stable enough where there's just not a reasonable argument for anyone but Frank.
If Frank plays in the same season as Zion Williamon, Anthony Davis, Jalen Brunson, he finishes 2nd in voting, just like Devonte'. Even Sherron did pretty well in NPOY voting. That's where what looks like an objective measure just is not completely.

Stats, awards, Final Fours, Championships, whatever, a handful of guys were fantastic. Make a list, and it's probably fine--so long as Naadir is last.
I just don't see it this way. He won the damn things, pretty much all of them. For that particular season of college basketball, he was the dude. That carries a lot of weight with me.
I think that's the point CnB is making. For that year, yes. Over the course of 18 years, no.
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Re: Classics

Post by pdub »

No, Frank Mason isn't the best college basketball player in 18 years.
But he's the best guard that Bill Self has had at Kansas.
And awards and stats are a factor when trying to decide why.
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