Kansas Crimson

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:02 pm IIRC for a stretch last night our front court was Dedrick and KJ.

How do we feel about that lineup?

Better than Dedric and Lightfoot. Worse than Dedric and DMac.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:56 pm I think 4/5 spots are certain. I think, by February, we might be better with Garrett over Vick for the 5th spot.

yes. i agree with this so much. I think garrett could be the glue that holds it all together. dare i compare him to brady morningstar? different players. but he gives us that stability. great defense. takes care of the ball. puts the team first. instead of outside shooting he gives us penetration

I also think we would be better off playing KJ lawson at the 4 over mitch. give KJ a bit of time at both the 3 and 4 situationally. and minutes with his brother they look good on the court together

KJ was unimpressive to me. Of course its only game 1. But he didnt do anything to convince me that we should be bumping other guys to the bench. Particularly at the 4 spot.

TDub wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:19 pm KJ was unimpressive to me. Of course its only game 1. But he didnt do anything to convince me that we should be bumping other guys to the bench. Particularly at the 4 spot.

6 boards tho

True. Lots of shots in that game. Lots of boards available. But yes. Im not downplaying KJ. I just dont know that you can bench anyone else for him at this point. Lots of analysis by me based on 1 game. Haha

Dedrick with KJ at the 4 is a freak nasty small ball lineup. Anyone can score from anywhere; anyone can switch on anybody.

Maybe Mitch is a touch bigger or stronger, maaaaybe. But considering how prone Mitch is to getting manhandled, I can’t help but wonder if KJ is a net better option with his agility and skill set. Plus he’s a better rebounder, right?

Also at the 5 PLAY MCCORMACK

TDub wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:19 pm KJ was unimpressive to me. Of course its only game 1. But he didnt do anything to convince me that we should be bumping other guys to the bench. Particularly at the 4 spot.

Agree. If people think mitch gets pushed around down low and isn't strong enough then I'm not sure how KJ could be the answer. He's rail thin and doesn't look nearly as strong as mitch.

KJ has some work to do, but I think he can get ahead of Moore on the depth chart. Doubt he can't jump any of the main 4 guards. Grimes Vick Dotson and Garrett are plenty of bodies most games now that we're playing 2 bigs almost exclusively.

KJ gets defensive rebounds. Mitch is the worst defensive rebounder I have ever seen by far (amongst Kansas bigs).

KJ has played 1 game and was only at the 4 for a short portion...I'd say it's pretty hard to give him credit as being a better defensive rebounder @ the 4spot than Mitch based on the Michigan state game.

We have no need to play KJ at the 4. Especially if we end up getting SDS back (unlikely, I know)...KJ is a wing. Our strength is our size....even if Mitch doesn't play, we still don't need KJ at the 4 (most games barring foul trouble)....give me our Mcdonald AA big McCormack over a skinny wing KJ playing in the front court everyday of the week.

Let's just say Dedric plays about 32mpg, Dok 28mpg....that leaves 20min for either McCormack or Mitch to cover while 1 of those 2 are out.....I think they can handle it. I'd be fine if McCormack plays all 20 of those, although I think we all know Mitch will play some either way because we foul alot.

KJ at the 4 gives us a legit small ball lineup without actually sacrificing size relative to just playing Mitch. They're listed at the same height. Perhaps Mitch's few extra pounds will benefit in some games, or perhaps KJ's superior wingspan (and tats) will. We'll see.

KJ also seems more skilled - better shooter, handler, passer, and yeah, I agree he seems like a better rebounder than Mitch too. I base this off of 1 game, plus a whole season at another school in which KJ already averaged more boards as a freshman than Mitch likely ever will (though I'd be thrilled to be wrong). I dunno, Mitch just doesn't seem to have that knack for waxing glass.

The other option is subbing Mitch at the 5. While he spent so much of last season getting pushed around at the position, this year we have McCormack. He's a big who is BIG - taller, longer, and damn near 50 pounds on Mitch. In just a limited sample size, he exhibited legit skills too. He could make the dropoff when Dok's out much less significant. I think this team's ceiling is much higher if we can get him up to speed.

That leaves Mitch with limited opportunity to make an impact. When is he the best option to put out there? He can be a good matchup against mid-major type bigs, and maybe certain opponent's second units, assuming we wouldn't be better off just exploiting small ball (that isn't actually smaller) with KJ. OR, if we do gotta go big - remember that stretch we had Dok AND David in? And either way, there's always the potential for foul trouble.

I guess, given the depth and options this team has, this is why I suggested Mitch should redshirt either way, even assuming Silvio's done. And if Silvio's not done? Fuhgeddaboudit.

I mean, we've had 3 games if you count the ones that don't count, and in both exhibitions KJ looked like the 12th best player on our roster, several spots behind Mitch. So, I'm not ready to bury Mitch for someone who looked like he was the second iteration of CJ Henry prior to Tueday.

The fact that we played Dok and McCormack together in game 1 indicates that Self is viewing the bigs as completely interchangeable this year. So there is no 4 or 5 necessarily to worry about as far as subbing goes. If mitch comes in for Dok and dedric is the other big it only impacts who the other guards on defense.


As far as small ball goes, I'd prefer if that's the route we are going to go that it'd be Dotson, grimes, Vick, Garrett out there....because they're our 4 best guards.

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:28 am The fact that we played Dok and McCormack together in game 1 indicates that Self is viewing the bigs as completely interchangeable this year. So there is no 4 or 5 necessarily to worry about as far as subbing goes.

It's been this way almost every year. I'm always surprised by the posters who make this big distinction between the 4 and 5 when it comes to substitution patterns/or a depth chart.

PhDhawk wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:26 am I mean, we've had 3 games if you count the ones that don't count, and in both exhibitions KJ looked like the 12th best player on our roster, several spots behind Mitch. So, I'm not ready to bury Mitch for someone who looked like he was the second iteration of CJ Henry prior to Tueday.

whoa, CJ? 12th best? Way harsh.

Meanwhile, Mitch looked like the second iteration of...well, sophomore Mitch. A good hustle block and a post bucket, but otherwise got pushed around and struggled with position. As soon as he came in, MSU had back to back dunks on us.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:34 am

PhDhawk wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:26 am I mean, we've had 3 games if you count the ones that don't count, and in both exhibitions KJ looked like the 12th best player on our roster, several spots behind Mitch. So, I'm not ready to bury Mitch for someone who looked like he was the second iteration of CJ Henry prior to Tueday.

whoa, CJ? 12th best? Way harsh.

Meanwhile, Mitch looked like the second iteration of...well, sophomore Mitch. A good hustle block and a post bucket, but otherwise got pushed around and struggled with position. As soon as he came in, MSU had back to back dunks on us.

It was two games...which is why I didn't say much, but if I didn't know names or faces, he'd be the guy I assumed was gonna redshirt and not Agbaji. He looked better against MSU, but again, not nearly enough data on him to put him ahead of Mitch. Most frontcourts don't have the heft of MSU's...Mitch will look better.

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:28 am The fact that we played Dok and McCormack together in game 1 indicates that Self is viewing the bigs as completely interchangeable this year. So there is no 4 or 5 necessarily to worry about as far as subbing goes. If mitch comes in for Dok and dedric is the other big it only impacts who the other guards on defense.


As far as small ball goes, I'd prefer if that's the route we are going to go that it'd be Dotson, grimes, Vick, Garrett out there....because they're our 4 best guards.

I can get on board with this.

But even if we were to court those guards, Mitch remains the 4th best option as the big out there with them.

PhDhawk wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:29 am

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:28 am The fact that we played Dok and McCormack together in game 1 indicates that Self is viewing the bigs as completely interchangeable this year. So there is no 4 or 5 necessarily to worry about as far as subbing goes.

It's been this way almost every year. I'm always surprised by the posters who make this big distinction between the 4 and 5 when it comes to substitution patterns/or a depth chart.

Ya. I've been guilty of it at times. The last few years have been different with limited bigs available.


Truthfully, I'll be pissed if we play small ball this year very frequently. It is NOT the strength of this roster. It's the exact opposite. We have limited outside shooting and our 2 best players are Dedric and Dok. Why would we want to space the floor and shoot 3s or drive with guys who don't excel at those things?

We want/need Dedric and Dok (or 1 of them and DMac) out there at all times or as much as possible...we don't have a Josh Jackson, we don't have frank mason or devonte graham. Our guards (other than maybe Grimes) aren't great scorers.

Bear in mind, by the end of last season Mitch was buried on the depth chart - even behind just two other big guys, one of whom couldn't shoot free throws and the other a half semester freshman. (and even when we tried Mitch at the 4 throughout the year, t-rex arms Svi remained a better option).

This year, we have way more options yet. I don't expect Mitch to play a big role down the stretch.

He's a 4 year role player. That's all he was ever meant to be. He knows it and embraces it. He's never pouting on the bench. Always engaged. We need guys like him. Even if he only plays 5-7mpg (which is likely what it'll be within a month or so)....McCormack is really good. He's going to surpass him sooner rather than later.

Svi was a lethal small ball 4 last year. Big reason we made the final 4....KJ ain't Svi. We don't need to try to replicate what we did the last 2-3 years. Our personnel just doesn't allow it. Small ball worked the last few years because it put our best players all on the floor.....anytime we don't have dedric or Dok on the floor then we won't have our best players out there. That's a huge difference between this year and the last 2. If you ranked our top 10 players 3 or 4 of the top 7 or 8 may be bigs.

Dedric
Dok
Grimes
Vick
Dotson
Garrett
McCormack
Moore
Mitch
KJ