Kansas Crimson

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:34 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:58 pm I also think we have to be prepared to accept a reality where something like Bill's middle-tier seasons become the next guy's upper-tier seasons. And so on.

Roi was great, but, over the long run, this describes his tenure here.

I honestly thought the Mayor was being groomed as a possible replacement: his daughter worked for Self when she was a student; he and Self are friends; he taught Self the 4-out offense, etc. Then...he went and took the job at the school where good coaches go to watch their careers die.

Yep. One of a long line of "ok, this will be the guy" hypothetical candidates.

(Oats was my most recent one of those, but he's off my list for what I consider to be horrible judgment last year.)

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:15 pm

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:34 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:58 pm I also think we have to be prepared to accept a reality where something like Bill's middle-tier seasons become the next guy's upper-tier seasons. And so on.

Roi was great, but, over the long run, this describes his tenure here.

I honestly thought the Mayor was being groomed as a possible replacement: his daughter worked for Self when she was a student; he and Self are friends; he taught Self the 4-out offense, etc. Then...he went and took the job at the school where good coaches go to watch their careers die.

Yep. One of a long line of "ok, this will be the guy" hypothetical candidates.

(Oats was my most recent one of those, but he's off my list for what I consider to be horrible judgment last year.)

Beard too, natch.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:13 pm Because there isn't one. He is going to have as strong an argument as anyone for GOAT, when he hangs it up.

Definitely. As long as you don't buy into the idea that the NCAA tournament is the ultimate measure of a coach's ability, it's hard to argue that anyone has been more successful than Self. And even when it comes to the tournament, he may get 1-2 more and be right there on championships too.

ChicagoHawk wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:19 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:13 pm Because there isn't one. He is going to have as strong an argument as anyone for GOAT, when he hangs it up.

Definitely. As long as you don't buy into the idea that the NCAA tournament is the ultimate measure of a coach's ability, it's hard to argue that anyone has been more successful than Self. And even when it comes to the tournament, he may get 1-2 more and be right there on championships too.

Exactly. I figure he's got at least one more. Perhaps several.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:18 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:15 pm

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:34 pm

Roi was great, but, over the long run, this describes his tenure here.

I honestly thought the Mayor was being groomed as a possible replacement: his daughter worked for Self when she was a student; he and Self are friends; he taught Self the 4-out offense, etc. Then...he went and took the job at the school where good coaches go to watch their careers die.

Yep. One of a long line of "ok, this will be the guy" hypothetical candidates.

(Oats was my most recent one of those, but he's off my list for what I consider to be horrible judgment last year.)

Beard too, natch.

Indeed, yep.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:13 pm

Overlander wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:00 pm We have upgraded coaching 3 straight times at KU.

I can't name another school that has.

I also cannot imagine an upgrade over HCBS.

Because there isn't one. He is going to have as strong an argument as anyone for GOAT, when he hangs it up.

We hoped that might be the case when we hired him, but I don't think anybody really thought he'd become who/what he is.

I remember thinking: "This guy's teams are tough. They made Roy's teams look soft when they played in the tournament. For now, that's enough."

I generally tire of the "family" arguments for coaches, but I do think that the fact that he had been here for a cup-of-coffee under LB encouraged him to accept the mythology of Kansas basketball, which, in turn, enabled him to use it synergistically.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:23 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:13 pm

Overlander wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:00 pm We have upgraded coaching 3 straight times at KU.

I can't name another school that has.

I also cannot imagine an upgrade over HCBS.

Because there isn't one. He is going to have as strong an argument as anyone for GOAT, when he hangs it up.

We hoped that might be the case when we hired him, but I don't think anybody really thought he'd become who/what he is.

I remember thinking: "This guy's teams are tough. They made Roy's teams look soft when they played in the tournament. For now, that's enough."

I generally tire of the "family" arguments for coaches, but I do think that the fact that he had been here for a cup-of-coffee under LB encouraged him to accept the mythology of Kansas basketball, which, in turn, enabled him to use it synergistically.

This^^^^^

Roy was the only unknown in these past 3 hires, and he turned out to be much more than we expected.

And Self is a HUGE upgrade over Roy.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:23 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:13 pm

Overlander wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:00 pm We have upgraded coaching 3 straight times at KU.

I can't name another school that has.

I also cannot imagine an upgrade over HCBS.

Because there isn't one. He is going to have as strong an argument as anyone for GOAT, when he hangs it up.

We hoped that might be the case when we hired him, but I don't think anybody really thought he'd become who/what he is.

I remember thinking: "This guy's teams are tough. They made Roy's teams look soft when they played in the tournament. For now, that's enough."

I generally tire of the "family" arguments for coaches, but I do think that the fact that he had been here for a cup-of-coffee under LB encouraged him to accept the mythology of Kansas basketball, which, in turn, enabled him to use it synergistically.

I agree with all of this.

I will add two things:

1 - I'm amazed by how much he's evolved over time. Think of the iterations we've gone through; we've done it with high-low and four-out. We've done it with old teams and children. One-and-dones and transfers. For a while we printed 5s, and then 4s, and then 1s, and now wings. The only things that have really stayed the same are defense and, if you are a 4* or better talent and you give Bill 3-4 years, you WILL become an all-conference level guy at least.

2 - I would absolutely NOT make the next hire treating KU connections as anything more than a cherry on top. Because I'm old enough to remember when Turgeon and Danny and on and on were the anointed ones...and that woulda been a disaster.

If I could "dream" up the next head coach at Kansas, it would be a Nick C/ Kirk H type.
Coaches sons who played great fundamental ball, had great KU careers, and pretty good NBA runs.

Overlander wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:39 pm If I could "dream" up the next head coach at Kansas, it would be a Nick C/ Kirk H type.
Coaches sons who played great fundamental ball, had great KU careers, and pretty good NBA runs.

I have no idea what Kirk is doing. Nick could be a compelling candidate. As could a certain predecessor at Kirk's position on the floor...or even a certain successor.

Overlander wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:39 pm If I could "dream" up the next head coach at Kansas, it would be a Nick C/ Kirk H type.
Coaches sons who played great fundamental ball, had great KU careers, and pretty good NBA runs.

Nick still works for the Thunder, right?

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:10 pm As could a certain predecessor at Kirk's position on the floor...or even a certain successor.

Predecessor: Jacques? KP?

Successor: Miles? Frankamp?

ETA: one of those is a joke...

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:17 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:10 pm As could a certain predecessor at Kirk's position on the floor...or even a certain successor.

Predecessor: Jacques? KP?

Successor: Miles? Frankamp?

ETA: one of those is a joke...

Jacque and Aaron. But again, I would absolutely not hire a KU guy for the sake of hiring a KU guy.

Yeah. Conner is still playing in Europe, I think, so he'd be out.

And, of course, KP is only a couple years younger than Bill.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:27 pm Yeah. Conner is still playing in Europe, I think, so he'd be out.

And, of course, KP is only a couple years younger than Bill.

One problem is, each of the guys with the experience and qualifications for the job ALSO knows, much moreso than any of us do, how career-suicidal he'd have to be to follow Bill.

And yes, I know.

But lightning in the same place, three times?

If Jacque was interested in coaching in college/KU, I think he'd be one of my top candidates.
Dude had to deal with a ton of drama and turnover and still got the Nets to the playoffs.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:48 pm

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:27 pm Yeah. Conner is still playing in Europe, I think, so he'd be out.

And, of course, KP is only a couple years younger than Bill.

One problem is, each of the guys with the experience and qualifications for the job ALSO knows, much moreso than any of us do, how career-suicidal he'd have to be to follow Bill.

And yes, I know.

But lightning in the same place, three times?

I am exceptionally glad that Bill hasn't made a habit of keeping former players on his bench, with the express purpose of making one of them the "successor in waiting." Scheyer and Davis are fine coaches, I'm sure, but I'm grateful Bill hasn't locked us into that non-decision.

Vaughn would be a good get.