NCAA Basketball 2018/2019

[PhDhawk]

It looks pissy, I'm told.

Again, our discussion was never some grand conclusion that the team is and will be better w/o Vick.

It has always been that this stretch we've played better than we did in the similar in length immediate preceding stretch with Vick. We are winning games that we either lost in that stretch or would have lost. It's an indictment on how bad we were in late January/early February.

I don't get the point of keeping everyone's positivity in check by refusing to acknowledge that which is so plainly obvious. It's out of character.

I don't think we were as bad as you're claiming in late Jan/early Feb. And I'm really not seeing improvement in terms of how we're playing on the court right now. For all the reasons pdub outlined.

We still play like shit on the road, we just happen to be playing awful awful teams right now. TTU and KSU both beat TCU by double digits on the road.

We've played really well at home all season, so I'm not really seeing the improvement there either.

You have to ignore a historically bad loss, the manner in which we're winning, who we're beating, and where we're playing to really convince yourself that we're significantly better now than a month ago.

[twocoach]

None of the games we've won are surprising and would have been any different if Vick was or wasn't on the team.

Pure speculation based on no actual evidence. Bottom line, KU went 1-7 on the road this year with Vick on the roster and has been 2-1 on the road with the only loss to an elite team with the best defense in all of ncaa basketball.

Based on the road game performances we had with Vick, there's no way you could convince me that we would have won either of our games @TCU or @OSU with him. His defensive effort, energy and concentration were terrible.

[ousdahl]

Regardless of how you feel about Chai playing hard vs Vick playing hard - the argument remains, he scored 0 points and 2 points, so it wasn't as if the guy who replacing Vick was constantly making a difference in the games played since.

Chai's shot 8-26 in his last four.
Vick's worst stretch was his last four games where he went 15-32.

it's not reasonable or realistic to expect an otherwise redshirt freshman to constantly make a difference.

it IS reasonable and realistic to expect a senior to not have to be replaced either way.

the argument remains...

[Deleted User 89]

Or perhaps if Chai was consistently ( that was the big argument around here v Vick ) playing well ( instead of a 0 point, 2 point stretch ) you'd have something.

it's coincidental that both of their stat lines are similarly inconsistent.

but then realize that one of those guys is an otherwise redshirt freshman who we had to play in part cuz we were otherwise struggling with a senior who played the same position, and the other is the senior who played the same position.

all stats aside, which player is more consistent on the play hard chart? Which player is a more consistent positive off-court presence? Which player did Self think we needed this year? Which player did Self think we could afford to take a leave?

which player plays consistently better D?

which player appears to be a better leader?

[pdub]

"Based on the road game performances we had with Vick, there's no way you could convince me that we would have won either of our games @TCU or @OSU with him."

Also pure speculation based on no actual evidence.

There's no way you can convince me that we would have lost either of our games @TCU or @OSU with him. Because those are some of the worst teams in the conference.

There's no way to prove it.
I see the evidence as lacking because of how close our wins were versus those bottom of the barrel teams - and his replacement in the starting lineup has fallen in production.

If we go out and take out OU on the road and handily beat Baylor ( we beat OU at home and Baylor on the road - Vick averaged 15 points in those games ) at home, that's where we can start to see some correlation ( i'd still say a stretch but i'd admit we'd have some evidence ).

At the moment, i'm just not seeing a sudden spike or unexpected turn that is because Vick isn't playing. We're winning the games we should as a top 20 kenpom team ( as we were ranked with and after Vick ).

[pdub]

Regardless of how you feel about Chai playing hard vs Vick playing hard - the argument remains, he scored 0 points and 2 points, so it wasn't as if the guy who replacing Vick was constantly making a difference in the games played since.

Chai's shot 8-26 in his last four.
Vick's worst stretch was his last four games where he went 15-32.

it's not reasonable or realistic to expect an otherwise redshirt freshman to constantly make a difference.

it IS reasonable and realistic to expect a senior to not have to be replaced either way.

the argument remains...

Doesn't relate to the argument of whether we're a better team/playing better without Vick.
I would agree with your statements - not sure why you are arguing them to me.

[pdub]

I mean, the argument is pointless.
Ya'all are set in stone that "yay Vicks' gone, we're good to go".
We'll just dance and post and go nowhere.

I'm gonna stick to the Vick thread if you want to Vick bash - if you want to make NCAA basketball 2018/2019 another Vick bash thread, have at it, i've ( and i'd say pissy PhD ) provided plenty of reason/evidence to counter your pretty baseless claims.

[CrimsonNBlue]

It looks pissy, I'm told.

Again, our discussion was never some grand conclusion that the team is and will be better w/o Vick.

It has always been that this stretch we've played better than we did in the similar in length immediate preceding stretch with Vick. We are winning games that we either lost in that stretch or would have lost. It's an indictment on how bad we were in late January/early February.

I don't get the point of keeping everyone's positivity in check by refusing to acknowledge that which is so plainly obvious. It's out of character.

I don't think we were as bad as you're claiming in late Jan/early Feb. And I'm really not seeing improvement in terms of how we're playing on the court right now. For all the reasons pdub outlined.

We still play like shit on the road, we just happen to be playing awful awful teams right now. TTU and KSU both beat TCU by double digits on the road.

We've played really well at home all season, so I'm not really seeing the improvement there either.

You have to ignore a historically bad loss, the manner in which we're winning, who we're beating, and where we're playing to really convince yourself that we're significantly better now than a month ago.

If you want to argue that a loss at @WVU, 10 point loss @UT, double digit loss @UK, and loss @KSU isn't that bad, then whatever, agree to disagree

But are you really going to argue it's the same as: 12 point win vs. OSU, 25 point win vs. WVU, 15 point win vs. KSU, 2 road wins (which tripled our total for the year), and an admittedly bad loss at Tech?

Come on, that's not even genuine.

[CrimsonNBlue]

Whatever. It. Takes.

[TDub]

At the moment, i'm just not seeing a sudden spike or unexpected turn that is because Vick isn't playing. We're winning the games we should as a top 20 kenpom team ( as we were ranked with and after Vick ).

Isnt the fact that there also obviously isnt a downward spike hurting your side of the argument?

[twocoach]

Again, no one is stating that we went from garbage to a Final Four contender, just that the net effect of him not being there seems to be that we are now winning games that earlier in the year when Vick was here, we lost. We couldnt close out games at all when he was playing. Why? Not sure.

We played a sucky WVU team with Vick. We were up by 6 with 2:38 to go and did not score again to lose by 1. We failed time and time again to make plays needed to win so we lost.

We played a sucky OSU team without Vick. We were tied with 2:44 to go and held OSU scoreless to close the game and won by 5. We repeatedly made plays needed to win so we won.

We played a mediocre Texas team with Vick. We were down 5 with 2:06 to go and were outscored 15-10 to close the game and lose by 10. We failed time and time again to make plays needed to win so we lost.

We played a mediocre TCU team without Vick. We were down 4 with 2:10 to go and held TCU scoreless to close, force OT and win the game in OT. We repeatedly made plays needed to win so we won.

[ousdahl]

Regardless of how you feel about Chai playing hard vs Vick playing hard - the argument remains, he scored 0 points and 2 points, so it wasn't as if the guy who replacing Vick was constantly making a difference in the games played since.

Chai's shot 8-26 in his last four.
Vick's worst stretch was his last four games where he went 15-32.

it's not reasonable or realistic to expect an otherwise redshirt freshman to constantly make a difference.

it IS reasonable and realistic to expect a senior to not have to be replaced either way.

the argument remains...

Doesn't relate to the argument of whether we're a better team/playing better without Vick.
I would agree with your statements - not sure why you are arguing them to me.

it doesn't relate?

if Self didn't think we were a better team/playing better without Vick, you think he would have been so cool with pulling a shirt off a freshman then letting a senior pack up and go home in the middle of conference play?

Loosing Vick is tragic. I don't think anyone has said "yay" about it - that's quite the broad brush. and again, it abso-fucking-lootely pains me to say it. but maybe it really was for the better. I'm just trying to be optimistic going forward, given the crazy circumstances, while you point to one stat or another and get all rosy about seniors or something.

shit, I don't even know what we're arguing about any more!

Let's just leave this thread about NCAA stuff, and spend the rest of the day giggling in the pubic etiquette thread.

[PhDhawk]

Again, our discussion was never some grand conclusion that the team is and will be better w/o Vick.

It has always been that this stretch we've played better than we did in the similar in length immediate preceding stretch with Vick. We are winning games that we either lost in that stretch or would have lost. It's an indictment on how bad we were in late January/early February.

I don't get the point of keeping everyone's positivity in check by refusing to acknowledge that which is so plainly obvious. It's out of character.

I don't think we were as bad as you're claiming in late Jan/early Feb. And I'm really not seeing improvement in terms of how we're playing on the court right now. For all the reasons pdub outlined.

We still play like shit on the road, we just happen to be playing awful awful teams right now. TTU and KSU both beat TCU by double digits on the road.

We've played really well at home all season, so I'm not really seeing the improvement there either.

You have to ignore a historically bad loss, the manner in which we're winning, who we're beating, and where we're playing to really convince yourself that we're significantly better now than a month ago.

If you want to argue that a loss at @WVU, 10 point loss @UT, double digit loss @UK, and loss @KSU isn't that bad, then whatever, agree to disagree

But are you really going to argue it's the same as: 12 point win vs. OSU, 25 point win vs. WVU, 15 point win vs. KSU, 2 road wins (which tripled our total for the year), and an admittedly bad loss at Tech?

Come on, that's not even genuine.

Wins and Losses matter. I wouldn't deny that. And I feel better after a shitty win than a respectable loss. I take the win every time.

But, I think we played better in our loss @UK than we did in our wins @TCU or @OSU. And that's even with the fact that we were still, stupidly, trying to play one big. If we're talking about THOSE games in the past, the wins matter a ton...but if we're talking about what that means about the future success of the team, the @TTU game and the @OSU game are not indicators of anything good

When we had our loosing streak it sucked, but I was aware of the upcoming schedule, so I expected us to do what we've done the past 3-4 weeks, before Vick left. So, I guess, seeing that come to fruition is not surprising to me, which makes me have a tough time attributing it to any kind of turnaround.

I mean, you've tried to downplay the fact that we needed OT to win @TCU by pointing out that we played like shit the last few minutes after leading most of the game...but that's exactly what happened @WVU too. We had a ~ 5 pt lead most of the last 5+ minutes of the game then shit the bed in the final minute. I think we continue to do a lot of the same things now that we've done all year, play well at home, play like shit on the road, make late game mistakes, etc.

[CrimsonNBlue]

Wins and Losses matter. I wouldn't deny that. And I feel better after a shitty win than a respectable loss. I take the win every time.

But, I think we played better in our loss @UK than we did in our wins @TCU or @OSU. And that's even with the fact that we were still, stupidly, trying to play one big. If we're talking about THOSE games in the past, the wins matter a ton...but if we're talking about what that means about the future success of the team, the @TTU game and the @OSU game are not indicators of anything good

When we had our loosing streak it sucked, but I was aware of the upcoming schedule, so I expected us to do what we've done the past 3-4 weeks, before Vick left. So, I guess, seeing that come to fruition is not surprising to me, which makes me have a tough time attributing it to any kind of turnaround.

I mean, you've tried to downplay the fact that we needed OT to win @TCU by pointing out that we played like shit the last few minutes after leading most of the game...but that's exactly what happened @WVU too. We had a ~ 5 pt lead most of the last 5+ minutes of the game then shit the bed in the final minute. I think we continue to do a lot of the same things now that we've done all year, play well at home, play like shit on the road, make late game mistakes, etc.

Alright, if you want to die on the hill w/ one other guy that the 5-1 stretch was no better than the 2-4 stretch, go ahead and stay there while everyone else rolls their eyes. I guess that's where we'll end up.

However, Tdub is right. At best, your argument is that the absence of Vick hasn't mattered negatively or positively. And, that's pretty telling.

[PhDhawk]

It says something that you have to minimize it to the 2-4 stretch. I'm pretty sure you made a pretty big deal about pdub cherry picking stats.

Obviously, post-Vick there are only 6 games, but there were 23 games prior to that, not 6.

I mean, I could compare the past 6 games to the first 6 where we went 6-0 and beat 6 teams now ranked in the top 16.

I'm pretty sure, Tdub's argument is the one I've been making all along. Not sure why you've decided to carry on if you're trying to make the same point. If you're not saying we're significantly better without Vick then there was no reason for you to argue with me.

[PhDhawk]

My argument was never a defense of Vick.

It was that we aren't suddenly better with him gone. Which, whether you're willing to admit or not, has been a theme around here, and on local and national media, and other places.

I think we look like the third best team in the big 12, and probably a 3 seed in the tourney. I don't think that's changed appreciably since some time in mid-January.

[pdub]

If the argument was we're a significantly worse team without Dok, then yes, I would agree.

[CrimsonNBlue]

It says something that you have to minimize it to the 2-4 stretch. I'm pretty sure you made a pretty big deal about pdub cherry picking stats.

Obviously, post-Vick there are only 6 games, but there were 23 games prior to that, not 6.

I mean, I could compare the past 6 games to the first 6 where we went 6-0 and beat 6 teams now ranked in the top 16.

I'm pretty sure, Tdub's argument is the one I've been making all along. Not sure why you've decided to carry on if you're trying to make the same point. If you're not saying we're significantly better without Vick then there was no reason for you to argue with me.

The stretch just goes back to our discussion a little over a week ago when I stated we were indeed playing better than what we had been recently before Vick left. Which, coincidentally or not, was the worst stretch of the season.

I was merely responding to you uncharacteristically losing your shit over one game. You then responded with one loss meaning and mattering more than all the other combined wins, which I took exception to.

People weren’t kumbaya’ing and saying we were a title contender again bc Vick was gone. It was a complete straw man to begin with.

[CrimsonNBlue]

My argument was never a defense of Vick.

It was that we aren't suddenly better with him gone. Which, whether you're willing to admit or not, has been a theme around here, and on local and national media, and other places.

I think we look like the third best team in the big 12, and probably a 3 seed in the tourney. I don't think that's changed appreciably since some time in mid-January.

I believe the quotes have been about the locker room being better since he’s been gone. Which, that certainly doesn’t hurt the on-court play. Anyone that has been around competitive sports will tell you that it helps more often than not.

[PhDhawk]

It says something that you have to minimize it to the 2-4 stretch. I'm pretty sure you made a pretty big deal about pdub cherry picking stats.

Obviously, post-Vick there are only 6 games, but there were 23 games prior to that, not 6.

I mean, I could compare the past 6 games to the first 6 where we went 6-0 and beat 6 teams now ranked in the top 16.

I'm pretty sure, Tdub's argument is the one I've been making all along. Not sure why you've decided to carry on if you're trying to make the same point. If you're not saying we're significantly better without Vick then there was no reason for you to argue with me.

The stretch just goes back to our discussion a little over a week ago when I stated we were indeed playing better than what we had been recently before Vick left. Which, coincidentally or not, was the worst stretch of the season.

But we have a shitty stretch like that every year. Last year we went something like 3-3 before entering the tourney 8-1.

We also have changed our style of play going with two bigs, which is related to Vick leaving, but indirectly. We had the Garrett injury. The emergence of Dotson. Maybe Grimes getting better. Pulling Agbaji's shirt. All these moving pieces happening that coincide with Vick leaving.

As far as getting better over the season, that's a hallmark of a Self coached team. But I think comparatively, this team hasn't improved as much as most of hist teams...and I think that's all the personnel changes that have happened, Vick included, but certainly not exclusively.