Official Big 12 Game Thread #4 - KU @ Baylor

[PhDhawk]

Hell the addition of Agbaji gives us a ton of options. We can still play two bigs or play 4 out.

Against TCU there were lineups with Garrett at the point and then I think, Vick, Grimes, Agbajie and Lawson. That's a shit load of length and you can switch 1-4 or maybe even 5...basically interchangeable parts on defense. Then later you can play Dotson, with 2 wings and 2 bigs.

We still have depth. We lost some high end talent, and we have a legit big in eligibility limbo, but we still have bodies. We're not starting anyone by default.

[Deleted User 75]

Yes. We don't have the luxury of benching 1 of our 4 best guards and our best outside shooter.

I'm with you.

I should/could have worded my original statement differently.

[PhDhawk]

Yes. We don't have the luxury of benching 1 of our 4 best guards and our best outside shooter.

I'm with you.

I should/could have worded my original statement differently.

No. We do have that luxury. We absolutely could bench Vick, if for some reason that is what Self wanted to do. We could do it, because we have the luxury of having legitimate guys on the bench. Or we could start 2 bigs and just slide garrett over.

Everyone acts like the sky is falling all of a sudden because we lost Dok and a couple guys aren't as good as we'd hoped, but we still have 10 capable DI players...any of whom are good enough to start if Self wanted.

We're playing Vick because he's our best, among many, options. We're not stuck playing him because he's the only option. You play your best starting lineup because they give you the best chance to win and he's among them. We have the luxury that we could legitimately start maybe a dozen different lineups. Most teams can't say that.

[Lonestarjayhawk]

MG does the dirty jobs that Grimes and Vick can't do. What we lose in Offense, we gain triple in Defense.

[PhDhawk]

MG does the dirty jobs that Grimes and Vick can't do. What we lose in Offense, we gain triple in Defense.

I don't know that that's true.

I mean your first sentence for sure is. He's one of the best defenders Self's ever had, I'd argue he's the most versatile.

But I don't remember an offensive player who provided less than Garrett in the Self era.

He's not just a zero gain player on offense, he's actually a liability. Meaning, it's not that he adds nothing to the offensive end...he actually hurts it.

[Deleted User 75]

Garrett is a good defender for sure, but I think it's also magnified because we haven't had many great defenders the last 3 or 4 years.. so it's especially joyous for me to watch him wreak havoc on that end of the court.

[CrimsonNBlue]

Graham, Mason, Jackson, Oubre, all good to great defenders.

And all those guys might not be as good as Garrett or Dotson.

[Deleted User 75]

Graham and mason good to great defenders?

That's new.

[Geezer]

Grimes has improved quite a bit defensively.

[CrimsonNBlue]

Graham and mason good to great defenders?

That's new.

Perhaps for you, IDK.

[CrimsonNBlue]

Grimes has improved quite a bit defensively.

He has. He was about the worst I've seen since Selby to start the season.

[Deleted User 75]

Graham and mason good to great defenders?

That's new.

Perhaps for you, IDK.

I seem to remember them both getting blown by frequently. It was a similar trait for both seasons: an inability to keep people out of the paint.

But those 2 can do no wrong in my eyes because they were fantastic Jayhawks. 2 of my all time favorites.

[PhDhawk]

Graham and mason good to great defenders?

That's new.

Perhaps for you, IDK.

I seem to remember them both getting blown by frequently. It was a similar trait for both seasons: an inability to keep people out of the paint.

But those 2 can do no wrong in my eyes because they were fantastic Jayhawks. 2 of my all time favorites.

So to paraphrase, you remember that those two frequently did something wrong; yet, those two can do nothing wrong, in your eyes.




Got it.

[DCHawk1]

I like Dotson, Agbaji, and Garrett on defense. It's been a long time -- eleven years? -- since we've had multiple guys with hands that fast. Add a shot-blocker (FREE SDS!), and we'll be a great defensive team by March.

[Mjl]

We don't have that luxury.

He also played like shit when he got benched earlier this season.

I don't think Vick comes off the bench and I don't think that solves any problems.

But to say we don't have that luxury???? I mean, we could easily start Agbaji and have Vick be the first guard off the bench, if for some reason Self thought that was the best way to win a game.

Sure. We could do a lot of things...but I agree I have no idea what problems we would be solving by doing it.

If people are looking for a way to get Agbaji starting that's fine...but it's not going to be over Vick or Grimes. It'd be over Garrett, but he's a fan favorite so people are looking for an alternative.

It's also been 2 games. We don't need to give up on Grimes for Ochai to have a major impact. We don't need to bench Vick for Ochai to have a major impact. There are more than enough minutes to go around. Especially if Moore and KJ are hardly going to play.

He would replace Grimes before Garrett. If Grimes keeps taking a picture when he shoots threes instead of getting back while his man races down and gets an open dunk, he will lose his starting spot to Agbaji.

[CrimsonNBlue]

Graham and mason good to great defenders?

That's new.

Perhaps for you, IDK.

I seem to remember them both getting blown by frequently. It was a similar trait for both seasons: an inability to keep people out of the paint.

But those 2 can do no wrong in my eyes because they were fantastic Jayhawks. 2 of my all time favorites.

Those guys were here during a time of philosphical transition. The mantra of "defense wins championships" is becoming a thing of the past, much to a bunch of old guys' chagrin.

Self has asked guys to back off on the defensive end because it doesn't provide the value that being fresh on offense does. Mason and Graham were two of those guys. Thomas Robinson was another. I think Dotson is the next guy he talks to about it. Blow-bys happen to everyone. It happens/will happen to Garrett and Dotson. But, when defense was needed, Mason and Graham could buckle guys up. Including Hield. Young, etc. Both should have been all defense in 2016. Mason was.

[CrimsonNBlue]

I don't think Vick comes off the bench and I don't think that solves any problems.

But to say we don't have that luxury???? I mean, we could easily start Agbaji and have Vick be the first guard off the bench, if for some reason Self thought that was the best way to win a game.

Sure. We could do a lot of things...but I agree I have no idea what problems we would be solving by doing it.

If people are looking for a way to get Agbaji starting that's fine...but it's not going to be over Vick or Grimes. It'd be over Garrett, but he's a fan favorite so people are looking for an alternative.

It's also been 2 games. We don't need to give up on Grimes for Ochai to have a major impact. We don't need to bench Vick for Ochai to have a major impact. There are more than enough minutes to go around. Especially if Moore and KJ are hardly going to play.

He would replace Grimes before Garrett. If Grimes keeps taking a picture when he shoots threes instead of getting back while his man races down and gets an open dunk, he will lose his starting spot to Agbaji.

I'm good with Grimes doing that as it seems to be part of his rhythm. More important that he finds his shot, and really most of his 3's taken are along the sideline so Dotson should have the safety spot.

The only time I recall missing one yesterday was when Agbaji crashed the boards after Dotson penetrated and left Agbaji at top of key. That led to that white dude's dunk. That's a no-no on Agbaji, but he's learning.

[Mjl]

I don't have a problem with the shot. I have a problem with him watching his shot instead of getting back on D and giving up a dunk because of it.

Agbaji either crashes or gets back. Grimes just stands there.

[CrimsonNBlue]

Again, it could very well be a rhythm thing. He needs to do what he needs to do to make them, he's thinking too much already.

If his guy cherrypicks on every one of his shots, so be it, that's why Dotson is always designated to get back and it also opens up offensive boards. This seems like another old man proverb.

[Deleted User 75]

I don't have a problem with the shot. I have a problem with him watching his shot instead of getting back on D and giving up a dunk because of it.

Agbaji either crashes or gets back. Grimes just stands there.

I've seen at least twice in Agbaji's 2 games where he jogged back on defense or didn't hardly get back at all after missed shots or turnovers...so I'm sure all of them are guilty of it occasionally. It's just easier to notice when you're looking for it from certain guys.