Since no one else has chimed in, I think Vivek came after her because she supports the US defense of Ukraine, not specifically US troops joining the fight*.
*Because, as anyone with an awareness of history knows, if we let revanchist, imperial Putin invade Ukraine without opposition, he'll almost certainly move into the Baltics, i.e., Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, and others, like Moldova and Georgia, under the guise of "protecting Russians" living there. And, because Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania are members of NATO, we are duty-bound to support them, and the likelihood of American boots on the ground is almost a certainty. Which is only one of the many reasons why supporting Ukraine as we are now is a relative bargain, both in terms of money, and American lives.
“We are living through a revolt against the future. The future will prevail.”
Anand Giridharadas
Since no one else has chimed in, I think Vivek came after her because she supports the US defense of Ukraine, not specifically US troops joining the fight*.
*Because, as anyone with an awareness of history knows, if we let revanchist, imperial Putin invade Ukraine without opposition, he'll almost certainly move into the Baltics, i.e., Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, and others, like Moldova and Georgia, under the guise of "protecting Russians" living there. And, because Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania are members of NATO, we are duty-bound to defend them, and the likelihood of American boots on the ground is almost a certainty. Which is only one of the reasons why supporting Ukraine as we are now is relatively an absolute, stone-cold bargain, not only in terms of money, but American lives, too.
And that's not to mention the signal it would send to Chinese President Xi Jinping if we didn't defend Ukraine, about how we'd respond, or not, to China invading Taiwan, and Iran increasing its use of proxies to intimidate Israel, and other countries in the Middle East.
Last edited by Shirley on Thu Dec 07, 2023 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
“We are living through a revolt against the future. The future will prevail.”
Anand Giridharadas
saying nothing of vgr, i don’t think it’s to much to expect that haley could name those provinces/oblasts…at least most of them
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
KUTradition wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 10:17 am
saying nothing of vgr, i don’t think it’s to much to expect that haley could name those provinces/oblasts…at least most of them
It’s also representative of a core problem that many iconoclast tech moguls have: a misguided perception that the CEO even should be omniscient and omnipotent.
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MICHHAWK wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2024 10:48 am
your posting history on this this site alone. says you should not be calling other people stupid.
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
KUTradition wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 11:05 am
what do you do to get on these mailing lists?
That's a fantastic question! I honestly don't know. I have voted in both Democratic and Republican primaries. That may be all it takes. I received an email from the Biden/Harris folks today as well.
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MICHHAWK wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2024 10:48 am
your posting history on this this site alone. says you should not be calling other people stupid.
KARL: I hear you say that a lot, chaos follows him, but is it chaos follows him or does he create the chaos? I mean that sounds so passive, he – chaos follows him.
HALEY: I mean I – rightly or wrongly. You call it whatever you want to call it. But when you feel it, it’s chaos. When I tell these rooms that, they all nod their head. They get it. It's the chaos. And Americans are tired. They want government to work for them again. And they want to win. And you look at these general election polls and Biden and Trump are head to head. It's going to be another nail-biter...
KARL: So, let me ask you, speaking of Trump, he has claimed absolute immunity in his defense to the election interference case. Is that your view? Do you believe a president has absolute immunity for anything that happens while they're president?
HALEY: I'm going to let the courts figure that out. I mean the last thing you're going to see me do is weigh in or learn the details about any of his court cases because I can't follow 91 charges, and I'm not going to.
KARL: That makes – that makes total sense but let me just ask you on the principle. Forget his case. Do you think that a president of the United States, that if you would get elected president you would have absolute immunity for anything you did while you were president?
HALEY: Well, I think the court issues are, do you have immunity when you’re president, when you're not president? At what point does that line fall? I'm going to let judges decide that. I don't know where the line falls. President Trump's going to have to defend himself no matter what. If he's found guilty, he's found guilty. If he's found innocent, he's found innocent. It would be wasted energy for me to sit there and focus on court cases and not focus on how to win that room that we just left.
KARL: Because that sounds a lot like saying you’re above the law, that a president’s above the law, that you can do whatever you want.
HALEY: I mean he can answer for himself. I am not in a court case. I'm happy I don't have to answer for that. So, let him answer it.
craven cra·ven /ˈkrāvən/
adjective
contemptibly lacking in courage; cowardly. "a craven abdication of his moral duty"
Shirley wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 8:14 am
Today In: Oh the craven* webs you weave, when your party is a personality cult, and your goal is to depose & replace the "personality".
Cowards gonna coward: (Nikki Haley's interview with ABC's Jonathan Karl)
KARL: I hear you say that a lot, chaos follows him, but is it chaos follows him or does he create the chaos? I mean that sounds so passive, he – chaos follows him.
HALEY: I mean I – rightly or wrongly. You call it whatever you want to call it. But when you feel it, it’s chaos. When I tell these rooms that, they all nod their head. They get it. It's the chaos. And Americans are tired. They want government to work for them again. And they want to win. And you look at these general election polls and Biden and Trump are head to head. It's going to be another nail-biter...
KARL: So, let me ask you, speaking of Trump, he has claimed absolute immunity in his defense to the election interference case. Is that your view? Do you believe a president has absolute immunity for anything that happens while they're president?
HALEY: I'm going to let the courts figure that out. I mean the last thing you're going to see me do is weigh in or learn the details about any of his court cases because I can't follow 91 charges, and I'm not going to.
KARL: That makes – that makes total sense but let me just ask you on the principle. Forget his case. Do you think that a president of the United States, that if you would get elected president you would have absolute immunity for anything you did while you were president?
HALEY: Well, I think the court issues are, do you have immunity when you’re president, when you're not president? At what point does that line fall? I'm going to let judges decide that. I don't know where the line falls. President Trump's going to have to defend himself no matter what. If he's found guilty, he's found guilty. If he's found innocent, he's found innocent. It would be wasted energy for me to sit there and focus on court cases and not focus on how to win that room that we just left.
KARL: Because that sounds a lot like saying you’re above the law, that a president’s above the law, that you can do whatever you want.
HALEY: I mean he can answer for himself. I am not in a court case. I'm happy I don't have to answer for that. So, let him answer it.
craven cra·ven /ˈkrāvən/
adjective
contemptibly lacking in courage; cowardly. "a craven abdication of his moral duty"
To me, the #1-#12,362 issues between now and next November are all: no Donald Trump in the big chair.
So I was happy for Haley's modest-but-possibly-real ascent, even if I think Haley would have a MUCH MUCH MUCH better chance to beat Biden than would Trump (and I still don't want this iteration of the R party anywhere near the big chair).
However - and I'm just restating your point - things like this tell me she doesn't have the steel for it. You're not going to beat Trump by finessing a Goldilocks path that is just antagonistic enough to engage never-Trumpers, and just placating enough to engage Trumpers.
Maybe she's keeping her powder dry and will (would?) go for the kill once it's a two-horse race.
But that's not what her history says. And that's not what this sentiment says.
Shirley wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 8:14 am
Today In: Oh the craven* webs you weave, when your party is a personality cult, and your goal is to depose & replace the "personality".
Cowards gonna coward: (Nikki Haley's interview with ABC's Jonathan Karl)
KARL: I hear you say that a lot, chaos follows him, but is it chaos follows him or does he create the chaos? I mean that sounds so passive, he – chaos follows him.
HALEY: I mean I – rightly or wrongly. You call it whatever you want to call it. But when you feel it, it’s chaos. When I tell these rooms that, they all nod their head. They get it. It's the chaos. And Americans are tired. They want government to work for them again. And they want to win. And you look at these general election polls and Biden and Trump are head to head. It's going to be another nail-biter...
KARL: So, let me ask you, speaking of Trump, he has claimed absolute immunity in his defense to the election interference case. Is that your view? Do you believe a president has absolute immunity for anything that happens while they're president?
HALEY: I'm going to let the courts figure that out. I mean the last thing you're going to see me do is weigh in or learn the details about any of his court cases because I can't follow 91 charges, and I'm not going to.
KARL: That makes – that makes total sense but let me just ask you on the principle. Forget his case. Do you think that a president of the United States, that if you would get elected president you would have absolute immunity for anything you did while you were president?
HALEY: Well, I think the court issues are, do you have immunity when you’re president, when you're not president? At what point does that line fall? I'm going to let judges decide that. I don't know where the line falls. President Trump's going to have to defend himself no matter what. If he's found guilty, he's found guilty. If he's found innocent, he's found innocent. It would be wasted energy for me to sit there and focus on court cases and not focus on how to win that room that we just left.
KARL: Because that sounds a lot like saying you’re above the law, that a president’s above the law, that you can do whatever you want.
HALEY: I mean he can answer for himself. I am not in a court case. I'm happy I don't have to answer for that. So, let him answer it.
craven cra·ven /ˈkrāvən/
adjective
contemptibly lacking in courage; cowardly. "a craven abdication of his moral duty"
To me, the #1-#12,362 issues between now and next November are all: no Donald Trump in the big chair.
So I was happy for Haley's modest-but-possibly-real ascent, even if I think Haley would have a MUCH MUCH MUCH better chance to beat Biden than would Trump (and I still don't want this iteration of the R party anywhere near the big chair).
However - and I'm just restating your point - things like this tell me she doesn't have the steel for it. You're not going to beat Trump by finessing a Goldilocks path that is just antagonistic enough to engage never-Trumpers, and just placating enough to engage Trumpers.
Maybe she's keeping her powder dry and will (would?) go for the kill once it's a two-horse race.
But that's not what her history says. And that's not what this sentiment says.
... I think Haley would have a MUCH MUCH MUCH better chance to beat Biden than would Trump...
^^^ 100%
...things like this tell me she doesn't have the steel for it. You're not going to beat Trump by finessing a Goldilocks path that is just antagonistic enough to engage never-Trumpers, and just placating enough to engage Trumpers...
^^^
...The proverb "when you strike at a king, you must kill him" is attributed to Ralph Waldo Emerson, but Emerson was expressing an idea that goes back at least to Machiavelli, who advises in The Prince that "men ought either to be well treated or crushed, because they can avenge themselves of lighter injuries, of more serious ones they cannot; therefore the injury that is to be done to a man ought to be of such a kind that one does not stand in fear of revenge."
Something has to happen to get Trump's cult, i.e., republicans, to abandon him. We've already seen that being indicted for trying to overthrow the government, threatening to suspend the constitution, quoting Hitler, and being a lop dog for our enemies, et al, weren't sufficient...so I wouldn't hold my breath. Otherwise, even if it does come down to the two of them and she were to somehow win the primary, he'll add her to his list of alibis and excuses for being a classless pussy unable to admit that he lost, and go scorched-earth to make sure she doesn't succeed in the general*.
*Except, and another illustration of your point: ...she doesn't have the steel for it...
Haley was one of the very fine Americans on the republican primary debate stage this summer who raised her hand to pledge that if Trump is convicted, she'll pardon him. So there is, that...
“We are living through a revolt against the future. The future will prevail.”
Anand Giridharadas
It's very important - crucially important - to recognize that R voters do not care about any of Trump's specific shit (like lunacy over windmills, or confusion over who he defeated in 2016, outright racism and so on).
Why is that?
Because they do not really care nearly as much about Trump, as they do about Trumpism. The seething white male grievance. The fear. The absolutism, the brutalism.
Opposing candidates MUST understand that whatever number of voters were so turned off by Trump that they would not support Trumpism, have already left him. Nobody that's still with him cares; "I could shoot a man in daylight on Fifth Avenue" was a self-fulfilling prophecy.
So, the Ds now very much DO need to run and win on issues. Specifically, keep the government out of people's pants/bedrooms, stop fucking with people's right to vote, and keep your guns out of my kids' schools and your bullets out of my kids' heads. And just keep sawing wood on the economy.
jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 10:46 am
It's very important - crucially important - to recognize that R voters do not care about any of Trump's specific shit (like lunacy over windmills, or confusion over who he defeated in 2016, outright racism and so on).
Why is that?
Because they do not really care nearly as much about Trump, as they do about Trumpism. The seething white male grievance. The fear. The absolutism, the brutalism.
Opposing candidates MUST understand that whatever number of voters were so turned off by Trump that they would not support Trumpism, have already left him. Nobody that's still with him cares; "I could shoot a man in daylight on Fifth Avenue" was a self-fulfilling prophecy.
So, the Ds now very much DO need to run and win on issues. Specifically, keep the government out of people's pants/bedrooms, stop fucking with people's right to vote, and keep your guns out of my kids' schools and your bullets out of my kids' heads. And just keep sawing wood on the economy.
^^^
Sadly, emphasizing Biden's economic accomplishments hasn't carried the day, and isn't likely to as much as we wish it would. But, making it a choice between Trump and Biden definitely wins for Biden, and using the issues you named to illustrate that choice, is what we can expect Biden's reelection campaign to emphasize as the election draws nearer.
“We are living through a revolt against the future. The future will prevail.”
Anand Giridharadas
