Pooka

[Deleted User 266]

I don't know what exactly happened that day. Hell, KU might not fully know either. Gutter certainly doesn't either.

But, I agree, legal ramifications aren't the end-all be-all when it comes to suspensions. However, that's not to say they don't have some impact. Especially PR-wise. And, the wiggle-room I cited was meant to be PR-wise. If Pooka admitted he did choke and hit her (he did not), or took a plea deal for probation (he did not), I would expect that to affect the suspension.

I am going to assume that KU did its due diligence in investigating the claims and came up with what they thought was an appropriate suspension based on all of the information they acquired. I don't really have any reason not to.


FWIW, I personally would have been fine with any level of harshness of a suspension all the way up to kicking him off the team. Sports have for too long shied away from domestic violence.

Nope, I wasn't there and I don't know for a fact what actually took place for him to be arrested and charged. If he did actually punch a fellow female student and grab her by the throat - he deserved to be booted off the team and/or kicked out of school - if that was the decision that Miles and/or KU felt was appropriate. Instead they chose to give him a slap on the wrist. To me, the punishment doesn't fit the crime but of course it doesn't really matter what I think and feel - despite my being a KU alum who has given money and support to the university and athletic program.
I fully admit I have a bit of a problem with Pooka making a 100% scripted (bullshit?) statement.
Can't fault him for saying it, he was a puppet that was told to say it and probably felt he had to say it to save his college career - and his school's ass.
"My behavior was unacceptable, and I'm very sorry to those who were impacted by my poor choices," Williams said in a prepared statement. "I am disappointed in myself, not just as a man, but as a student-athlete looked up to by younger kids. My suspension from football has been hard, but I have learned from it. I'm thankful I can continue with my education at KU. Looking ahead, the most important thing to me is to regain the trust and respect of my classmates, teammates, and fans. I am humbled to return to football and to prepare for the season."

We all know many if not most kids (I mean men - being that he refers to himself as a man) make "poor choices" but what constitutes the difference between a "poor choice" and committing a serious crime - and what punishment is deserved when a male student at KU is physical with a female student? I guess we found out. Like I said, a slap on the wrist for an alleged punch and a throat grab. Hmmm.
I am all for second chances. I am all for people being remorseful, and taking responsibility, and learning from their mistake/s, and moving on, and becoming better people. Hopefully that's the case here and I truly wish Pooka the best. Regardless if I feel he should have been given a harsher punishment - or not.

[Sparko]

And sometimes Gutter you should withhold censure when devoid of facts. Blame is easy when you work backwards from a corrupt thesis. It is also irrelevant.

[Sparko]

Darn double post

[Deleted User 62]

I don't know what exactly happened that day. Hell, KU might not fully know either. Gutter certainly doesn't either.

But, I agree, legal ramifications aren't the end-all be-all when it comes to suspensions. However, that's not to say they don't have some impact. Especially PR-wise. And, the wiggle-room I cited was meant to be PR-wise. If Pooka admitted he did choke and hit her (he did not), or took a plea deal for probation (he did not), I would expect that to affect the suspension.

I am going to assume that KU did its due diligence in investigating the claims and came up with what they thought was an appropriate suspension based on all of the information they acquired. I don't really have any reason not to.


FWIW, I personally would have been fine with any level of harshness of a suspension all the way up to kicking him off the team. Sports have for too long shied away from domestic violence.

Nope, I wasn't there and I don't know for a fact what actually took place for him to be arrested and charged. If he did actually punch a fellow female student and grab her by the throat - he deserved to be booted off the team and/or kicked out of school - if that was the decision that Miles and/or KU felt was appropriate. Instead they chose to give him a slap on the wrist. To me, the punishment doesn't fit the crime but of course it doesn't really matter what I think and feel - despite my being a KU alum who has given money and support to the university and athletic program.
I fully admit I have a bit of a problem with Pooka making a 100% scripted (bullshit?) statement.
Can't fault him for saying it, he was a puppet that was told to say it and probably felt he had to say it to save his college career - and his school's ass.
"My behavior was unacceptable, and I'm very sorry to those who were impacted by my poor choices," Williams said in a prepared statement. "I am disappointed in myself, not just as a man, but as a student-athlete looked up to by younger kids. My suspension from football has been hard, but I have learned from it. I'm thankful I can continue with my education at KU. Looking ahead, the most important thing to me is to regain the trust and respect of my classmates, teammates, and fans. I am humbled to return to football and to prepare for the season."

We all know many if not most kids (I mean men - being that he refers to himself as a man) make "poor choices" but what constitutes the difference between a "poor choice" and committing a serious crime - and what punishment is deserved when a male student at KU is physical with a female student? I guess we found out. Like I said, a slap on the wrist for an alleged punch and a throat grab. Hmmm.
I am all for second chances. I am all for people being remorseful, and taking responsibility, and learning from their mistake/s, and moving on, and becoming better people. Hopefully that's the case here and I truly wish Pooka the best. Regardless if I feel he should have been given a harsher punishment - or not.

You make a lot of assessments with no real knowledge of the incident.

Again.

[Deleted User 266]

I make some "assessments" based on what knowledge I do have of the incident. "Again".
That's what people do on here and in life - make "assessments" based on what they know about an "incident".
People including yourself.
I'll appease you. You are 100% right that NO ONE other than Pooka, the dude that was there, and the woman (who as I have stated ALLEGEDLY was punched and grabbed by her throat) have "real/true knowledge" of the incident.
In theory, other than what those 3 were involved in and witnessed, everything is basically hearsay - isn't it?
Yet people choose to believe what they want to believe and make their own "assessments" from what they have been told and read. Including the Police, the "court", the University, and Coach Miles.
Me too.

[Sparko]

I make some "assessments" based on what knowledge I do have of the incident. "Again".
That's what people do on here and in life - make "assessments" based on what they know about an "incident".
People including yourself.
I'll appease you. You are 100% right that NO ONE other than Pooka, the dude that was there, and the woman (who as I have stated ALLEGEDLY was punched and grabbed by her throat) have "real/true knowledge" of the incident.
In theory, other than what those 3 were involved in and witnessed, everything is basically hearsay - isn't it?
Yet people choose to believe what they want to believe and make their own "assessments" from what they have been told and read. Including the Police, the "court", the University, and Coach Miles.
Me too.

Hence, trust those who have knowledge, access and insight into the people and events. They made an informed decision. Nobody would want to be second-guessed in such a serious situation.

[UnholyLivingDead]

Thought it might be helpful to note that in addition to the one-game suspension, other sanctions included:

• Williams is "subject to probation until he graduates"

• Monthly meetings with a university conduct officer

• 40 hours of community service

• Completion of a sexual violence accountability course through KU's Sexual Assault Prevention and Education Center

Source: https://247sports.com/college/kansas/Ar ... 133508572/

[PhDhawk]

Thought it might be helpful to note that in addition to the one-game suspension, other sanctions included:

• Williams is "subject to probation until he graduates"

• Monthly meetings with a university conduct officer

• 40 hours of community service

• Completion of a sexual violence accountability course through KU's Sexual Assault Prevention and Education Center

Source: https://247sports.com/college/kansas/Ar ... 133508572/

Right, and those things are in addition to what he got as part of his diversion agreement.

Like Gutter and Pdub, I'm not entirely comfortable with this decision. One thing that mitigates that for me is that he was given a diversion. While Lawrence and KU are intertwined, I have to believe that the legal system has less incentive to make sure Pooka is on the field than say KU itself...so if a diversion was granted, maybe the incident wasn't as bad as gutter is assuming.

[CrimsonNBlue]

I make some "assessments" based on what knowledge I do have of the incident. "Again".
That's what people do on here and in life - make "assessments" based on what they know about an "incident".
People including yourself.
I'll appease you. You are 100% right that NO ONE other than Pooka, the dude that was there, and the woman (who as I have stated ALLEGEDLY was punched and grabbed by her throat) have "real/true knowledge" of the incident.
In theory, other than what those 3 were involved in and witnessed, everything is basically hearsay - isn't it?
Yet people choose to believe what they want to believe and make their own "assessments" from what they have been told and read. Including the Police, the "court", the University, and Coach Miles.
Me too.

Hence, trust those who have knowledge, access and insight into the people and events. They made an informed decision. Nobody would want to be second-guessed in such a serious situation.

Gutter's right in that KU is not above being criticized for their handling and punishment in this situation.

If you're going to do so, though, you have to operate on actual facts that are known. Pooka did not admit anything in particular and plead to nothing. There is also no current reason to believe KU did not do due diligence prior to the punishment. It would almost seem opposite given he was not with the team for several months.

[Deleted User 266]

Again I will say the assumptions/assessments that I have made are based on what I have been told and read. People are 100% correct to point out to me that what has been stated isn't necessarily factual.
Going solely on if what he was accused of is true..... Or if it's not true........ We can come to our own conclusions and my guess is many people's conclusions differ on the subject.

Here is another thought I have - he was suspended from all Football activities for 7 months. Fair, unfair, whatever, am I to conclude that KU did their own due diligence and determine they felt it was ok to keep a student on campus who was accused of punching and grabbing the throat of another (female) student - despite the football program feeling a need to suspend him from football activities for 7 months?
Perhaps the University found/felt he was not guilty of what he was charged with?
Perhaps legally the could not administer punishment until/unless he was found to be 100% guilty by a court of law?
Obviously I am not a lawyer. I'll leave it up to the board attorneys to explain and debate - if they choose to do as such.

I'll also let others make sense of the Code of Student Rights and Responsibilities and figure out what if any liability KU may have took on without administering what they should or should not have in terms of punishment.

https://policy.ku.edu/sites/policy.ku.e ... s_2018.pdf

[PhDhawk]

Again I will say the assumptions/assessments that I have made are based on what I have been told and read. People are 100% correct to point out to me that what has been stated isn't necessarily factual.
Going solely on if what he was accused of is true..... Or if it's not true........ We can come to our own conclusions and my guess is many people's conclusions differ on the subject.

Here is another thought I have - he was suspended from all Football activities for 7 months. Fair, unfair, whatever, am I to conclude that KU did their own due diligence and determine they felt it was ok to keep a student on campus who was accused of punching and grabbing the throat of another (female) student - despite the football program feeling a need to suspend him from football activities for 7 months?
Perhaps the University found/felt he was not guilty of what he was charged with?
Perhaps legally the could not administer punishment until/unless he was found to be 100% guilty by a court of law?
Obviously I am not a lawyer. I'll leave it up to the board attorneys to explain and debate - if they choose to do as such.

I'll also let others make sense of the Code of Student Rights and Responsibilities and figure out what if any liability KU may have took on without administering what they should or should not have in terms of punishment.

https://policy.ku.edu/sites/policy.ku.e ... s_2018.pdf

You're kinda pulling a lobster here, in that you're paying attention to the facts that fit your storyline and ignoring the rest.

CnB corrected a lot of what you got wrong, and there's other evidence to support that maybe he didn't do all of what he was initially accused of.

I shudder to think that the direction we're moving in as a society that a mere accusation is becoming the equivalent of a guilty verdict in the court of public opinion.

A single accusation now seems to be enough to fire someone from their job and have them become a social pariah.

I think what KU did here (from the outside) appears to be the right thing. Someone gets accused of something bad, you suspend that person while you look into it, and if you don't find something, you re-instate them. I mean, that's what seems to have happened here. Sure, the fact that he's really good probably biases those decisions, but what's the alternative? Should he be kicked out of school and the University should turn their backs on him?

To my knowledge this was his first offense...if he'd had multiple accusations against him, or gotten in trouble prior, I'd feel differently about it.

[pdub]

I shudder to think that the direction we're moving in as a society that a mere accusation is becoming the equivalent of a guilty verdict in the court of public opinion.

A single accusation now seems to be enough to fire someone from their job and have them become a social pariah.

[CrimsonNBlue]

Again I will say the assumptions/assessments that I have made are based on what I have been told and read. People are 100% correct to point out to me that what has been stated isn't necessarily factual.
Going solely on if what he was accused of is true..... Or if it's not true........ We can come to our own conclusions and my guess is many people's conclusions differ on the subject.

Here is another thought I have - he was suspended from all Football activities for 7 months. Fair, unfair, whatever, am I to conclude that KU did their own due diligence and determine they felt it was ok to keep a student on campus who was accused of punching and grabbing the throat of another (female) student - despite the football program feeling a need to suspend him from football activities for 7 months?
Perhaps the University found/felt he was not guilty of what he was charged with?
Perhaps legally the could not administer punishment until/unless he was found to be 100% guilty by a court of law?
Obviously I am not a lawyer. I'll leave it up to the board attorneys to explain and debate - if they choose to do as such.

I'll also let others make sense of the Code of Student Rights and Responsibilities and figure out what if any liability KU may have took on without administering what they should or should not have in terms of punishment.

https://policy.ku.edu/sites/policy.ku.e ... s_2018.pdf

KU can punish how it wants separate from the criminal process. Obviously, within civil rights laws.


The Code you cited states right in it what the university may do if a student commits non-academic misconduct (and the may is huge in legalese). Someone is already on a long road to holding KU liable because of the language of the code. Not to mention if the Student Affairs Office even investigated, whose discretion is not specifically spelled out in the Code you cite.

In other words, to be worried about liability, you'd need a scintilla of evidence that KU was reqtuired to investigate, and either did not investigate or did investigate and negligently decided not to punish.

We're so far down the rabbit hole of things that there is simply no reason to believe happened.

[CrimsonNBlue]

To my knowledge this was his first offense...if he'd had multiple accusations against him, or gotten in trouble prior, I'd feel differently about it.

In most cases, diversion is only offered to first time offenders.

[PhDhawk]

To my knowledge this was his first offense...if he'd had multiple accusations against him, or gotten in trouble prior, I'd feel differently about it.

In most cases, diversion is only offered to first time offenders.

But I meant at all. Like breaking team rules or anything else outside of the legal system.

[CrimsonNBlue]

To my knowledge this was his first offense...if he'd had multiple accusations against him, or gotten in trouble prior, I'd feel differently about it.

In most cases, diversion is only offered to first time offenders.

But I meant at all. Like breaking team rules or anything else outside of the legal system.

Ah, gotcha. Gutter's been arguing university punishment, so I was following from there.

[Sparko]

It is easy to go down racist rabbit holes on these things. I appreciate that KU looked at this objectively. Comments on some sports sites are really animated when accusations are leveled against black athletes. I just sense more outrage in these cases. Thinking back especially to car kicking episode.

[PhDhawk]

It is easy to go down racist rabbit holes on these things. I appreciate that KU looked at this objectively. Comments on some sports sites are really animated when accusations are leveled against black athletes. I just sense more outrage in these cases. Thinking back especially to car kicking episode.

I think it has more to do with rivalries, and fandom than race.

It's always easier to forgive/make excuses for the guys on the team you cheer for and it's always easier to blame other teams for doing the immoral thing only caring about winning.

I think in most instances, there are always complicated things involved...but if it's at a rival school (or if you're gutter), you don't put in the effort to look into specifics.

[Sparko]

That is certainly a factor. But MU and Bluemont can rage against humanity for diverse reasons.

[Deleted User 266]

Les. Media Day.
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-fo ... kscw3s64uc