F the NCAA

[jfish26]

So then we draw back the curtain some more and, because Saban is talking about players coming to him directly about money, we can reasonably assume that Saban, an employee of the university, is strongly associated with how these athletes are compensated thus confirming my earlier comments 4-5 years ago that this would be a recruiting/retaining tactic ( while many here disputed that ).

And that soon enough players will be paid directly by the schools.
And maybe eventually not have to attend class.

Do we think that is unreasonable now on seeing how things are playing out or should I take note of this for a few years down the line?

These are all fair points.

[DeletedUser]

This go here?

https://www.instagram.com/p/C4OA6FHLGd4 ... VzZGlqbw==

[jfish26]

what happens when this system you love kills the sport we love? what happens to the thousands and thousands of kids every year that aren't going to make the NBA but we're going to get a free education and live like kings for 4 years?

You are obsessed with this generational wealth, make things fair angle. What happens to the kids that were able to make something better out of their lives because of the opportunity to get out, go to college and get a degree, when the sport crumbles into a G league? is that fair to them? When the players association says they don't have to go to school because they are employees...so what? they make 100k in 3 or 4 years and have nothing else to show for it at the end of their "college" career? back to nothing and haven't improved their prospects or employable skillset beyond athletics? Doesn't sound like a great step forward.

I haven't said I love the system. And I certainly would not say I would personally love each and every aspect or consequence of the system that I would support being adopted.

I think the long-term health of the sport is inextricably bound up with its fairness to the sport's stakeholders, and that fairness is inherently personal to each stakeholder.

I've typed up (in response to the specific items raised in your post) and discarded ten different expansions on that.

But as much as I think (obviously, look at the page count) it's an extremely interesting and nuanced and complex discussion, it's also one where we - myself VERY much included - tend to end up taking things to extremes, and arguing with points the other isn't really making. In ways that can detract from, and not add to, the best part about this board (being its intimacy, I guess).

So I want to pause at this point, and express that I respect your (and pdub's) views. And I would welcome carrying on, but I'm also fine not carrying on.

[ousdahl]

Yum

https://www.instagram.com/p/C4OA6FHLGd4 ... V3eWJ3MQ==

[DeletedUser]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cz7yvaMt ... RxOTVndGpz

[ousdahl]

Kinda pols talky but I think this is the best place to springbored the thought:

Is there anything that DOESN’T suck more and more the more it becomes monetized?

[DeletedUser]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3ZEYN3N ... A5emRyc3lt

[KUTradition]

if you aren’t adapting, you’re dying

[jfish26]

if you aren’t adapting, you’re dying

In almost all cases, you're better off managing change to a negotiated outcome (of sorts) than having change forced on you. The double-whammy of NIL and the portal is a great example.

I very strongly suspect that the portal is causing a LOT more heartburn (on a general fanbase, NOT individual fan, basis) than player comp going from black market to gray market. But we lump these things, and their consequences, together - because the inevitable result of not managing the changes was that eventually everything would simply break. Which it did.

[KUTradition]

if you aren’t adapting, you’re dying

In almost all cases, you're better off managing change to a negotiated outcome (of sorts) than having change forced on you. The double-whammy of NIL and the portal is a great example.

I very strongly suspect that the portal is causing a LOT more heartburn (on a general fanbase, NOT individual fan, basis) than player comp going from black market to gray market. But we lump these things, and their consequences, together - because the inevitable result of not managing the changes was that eventually everything would simply break. Which it did.

agreed

the ncaa, universities/ADs, and coaches, all had to see this coming (in one form or another), and chose to bury heads in the sand and allow lawyers and judges to make the rules

[pdub]

"Recruiting has never been a challenge until recruiting became not recruiting anymore...Over time the relationship mattered enough that he believed that I was going to the right thing by him [ instead now it's ] hey, here's 500k to spend 9 months over here."

Is Mike Boyton an approved messenger or still no?

[jfish26]

"Recruiting has never been a challenge until recruiting became not recruiting anymore...Over time the relationship mattered enough that he believed that I was going to the right thing by him [ instead now it's ] hey, here's 500k to spend 9 months over here."

Is Mike Boyton an approved messenger or still no?

This is laughable - I would think even to you (despite our general disagreements on this stuff).

Mike Boynton is making $3mm at Oklahoma State. A job he started in 2017, while the school was under the cloud of the FBI investigation with which we're all familiar - which investigation was about schools competing with each other (by proxy) on black market player compensation.

What job did Boynton think he was signing up for?

At least the long-timers are complaining about a world that might have existed in the same millennium as one they coached in - although I will again note that Blue Chips came out in 1994.

[DeletedUser]

if you aren’t adapting, you’re dying

In almost all cases, you're better off managing change to a negotiated outcome (of sorts) than having change forced on you. The double-whammy of NIL and the portal is a great example.

I very strongly suspect that the portal is causing a LOT more heartburn (on a general fanbase, NOT individual fan, basis) than player comp going from black market to gray market. But we lump these things, and their consequences, together - because the inevitable result of not managing the changes was that eventually everything would simply break. Which it did.

agreed

the ncaa, universities/ADs, and coaches,...

They all had the chance to stop this within the recruiting culture decades ago.

They did nothing. Instead, a guy like Self was close enough with guys like Gassnola that he sat with him at his HoF induction.

I think the coaches are right (in what they're saying now and how the described the recruiting atmosphere in those videos) .

I also think the most powerful of the coaches (The Selfs, Caliparis, Ks, Sabans etc) allowed this culture to take over by being a part of it or purposely turning a blind eye. To the point that what happened with the courts was inevitable/necessary.

[pdub]

OK, so when we're bringing up salaries, specifically, where is the cut off?
500k a household kinda deal ?? - b/c maybe you aren't the best messenger either.

Should we talk more about those poor poor families living on minimum wage that seem to make up the entirety of the pool of NCAA athletes that you have oh so bravely fought for while living in the top 5% income bracket?

[jfish26]

A year after hospitalization, Kansas coach Bill Self lives by a fresh perspective

https://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-c ... rylink=cpy

With such a record [22-8] and so much inconsistency, say, two years ago, Self said, he would have been consumed with the flaws as already defining. But now ...

“I probably feel like it’s going to come down to, ‘Can we play our best when it counts the most?’“ he said. “And before I’d say, ‘No, we’ve got to play our best every day in order to get to where we can play our best when it counts.’

“Does that make sense?”

Sure.

But as I type this I’m still thinking … who are you and what did you do with Bill Self?

“It’s a little bit of a pivot,” he said, smiling, and later adding, “I actually think in some ways my health scare has helped with my perspective on how I need to coach moving forward with the new times. I really do. “With (the transfer portal and Name, Image and Likeness benefits) and all this stuff, you can’t get so stressed about things that you can’t control. It’s just the way of the world now.”

[...]

The at-least tentative transition from iron-willed to more flexible perhaps is most evident in how he’s contending with the implications of the coin of the realm: the money to be made in NIL.

“I think you probably should be a little bit more patient to see it from a player’s viewpoint now than maybe how I was in the past,” he said. “I think being sick gave me more of an up-to-date perspective on how coaches need to be (now).”

Case(s) in point: It’s not altogether unusual for a player to ask Self if he can move a practice time to accommodate a money-making opportunity.

Most of his career, even the gall to ask would have stunned Self and immediately been rejected. He would have said we do this at this time for this reason, including when officials might be available.

Now, well …

“Is it going to hurt me if we practice earlier? No. So, OK,” he said, laughing and adding, “Now, you call the officials, and you say, ‘Hey, can we move (it to another time?)’”

None of which is to say Self has gone “soft,” to use one of his most scathing terms of criticism.

While he reckons former players would tell you he’s not as hard on these guys, it’s about adaptation … not capitulation.

To modern times, for one thing.

“The players still care the same amount they always have,” he said, smiling and adding, “They also care about some other things more than maybe what they did in the past, too, though.

“And that’s not going away. That’s not changing.”

Meanwhile, Self is.

Both in trying to bring the best out in this team, which he knows has scant margin for error if it’s going anywhere in the postseason, and in learning how to do what’s best for his own long-term health — twin transformative endeavors stemming from a year ago.

By my calling of the balls and strikes...this is 100% exactly how I would want my program being led.

[jfish26]

OK, so when we're bringing up salaries, specifically, where is the cut off?
500k a household kinda deal ?? - b/c maybe you aren't the best messenger either.

Should we talk more about those poor poor families living on minimum wage that seem to make up the entirety of the pool of NCAA athletes that you have oh so bravely fought for while living in the top 5% income bracket?

It's not about the number. It's just absurd on its face for that guy to bemoan how much the game has changed since he took the Oklahoma State job in 2017.

[pdub]

"It’s not altogether unusual for a player to ask Self if he can move a practice time to accommodate a money-making opportunity."

Woof.
Maybe this is why we can't beat UCF and WVU.

[pdub]

OK, so when we're bringing up salaries, specifically, where is the cut off?
500k a household kinda deal ?? - b/c maybe you aren't the best messenger either.

Should we talk more about those poor poor families living on minimum wage that seem to make up the entirety of the pool of NCAA athletes that you have oh so bravely fought for while living in the top 5% income bracket?

It's not about the number. It's just absurd on its face for that guy to bemoan how much the game has changed since he took the Oklahoma State job in 2017.

It's also slightly absurd for a guy in your field ( hypocritical certainly ) to be woe is me about the injustices of jobs and markets but we deal with it.

[jfish26]

OK, so when we're bringing up salaries, specifically, where is the cut off?
500k a household kinda deal ?? - b/c maybe you aren't the best messenger either.

Should we talk more about those poor poor families living on minimum wage that seem to make up the entirety of the pool of NCAA athletes that you have oh so bravely fought for while living in the top 5% income bracket?

It's not about the number. It's just absurd on its face for that guy to bemoan how much the game has changed since he took the Oklahoma State job in 2017.

It's also slightly absurd for a guy in your field to be woe is me about the injustices of jobs and markets but we deal with it.

You're welcome to feel that way, and I would understand why you feel that way (even if I disagree), and I have been openly working to keep the temperature turned down here.

My feeling has always been pretty much what I said yesterday: I think the long-term health of the sport is bound up in its fairness to stakeholders.

I don't think fairness is just a goal in and of itself; I think fairness is essential to the sport remaining viable.

And I think you agree at least in part - I think you do want the sport to be fair to all stakeholders. You would just achieve fairness in a different way than I would, and my opinion is that your way would not keep the sport viable. You disagree.

[pdub]

"I think the long-term health of the sport is bound up in its fairness to stakeholders."

This is also quite rich all things considered.