Flight Cancellations

[KUTradition]

the thing is, if done with some forethought and attention, living rurally can be less impactful than living in many urban locales

how so?

the big obstacle, once again, is transportation, right?

if one wants to live as a hermit on some self-sustaining plot and never go anywhere, sure.

Otherwise, I think of the point about how the urban hipster riding their bike to their coffeeshops and dive bars has a smaller carbon footprint than the "environmentalists" driving their big SUVs from their acreage in the burbs to go fish and ski and recreate in the mountains.

transportation where?

“if one wants to live as a hermit on some self-sustaining plot and never go anywhere, sure.”

the overwhelming majority of people i know that live rurally are very much in this boat (that’s why they live where they do)

i didn’t say it was for everyone. i intentionally stipulated that it would have to be done with forethought and attention in order to be less impactful than living in an urban spot

one wouldn’t have to live absolutely sustainably off their land in order for it to be less impactful than living in most urban places

[ousdahl]

is there any data or research to back that up? An elevator pitch's worth of sustainability talking points?

I imagine there's some spectrum of sustainability, right?

"here's the XX things a rural type would have to do to achieve a smaller carbon footprint than XX urbanite," and vice versa

[KUTradition]

i’m sure there is, but i don’t have it handy

off the top of my head, water and energy consumption/conservation might be the easiest to address. in the right locales, rain water can be collected, stored, and recycled. for energy, the initial costs are notable, but off-grid living is entirely possible in the right situations with a combination of solar and wind alternatives

my folks looked into adding the wind option, and decided to initial investment cost was prohibitive, but that was years ago. once paid for, there was a decent chance that it would have resulted in a small profit, generating more energy than would have been used

those are just off the top of my head and based on personal, dated experience

the tech is much better and more efficient now

like i said, it’s not for everyone, and depending on a particular situation it might be cost prohibitive up front to make the transition and do so “responsibly”

it also necessarily requires the sacrifice of certain amenities and luxuries

[TDub]

I can get where Tdub's coming from too

but I also think one of the biggest obstacles facing the United States and the world at large is some sense of stubbornness.

How do we get more Americans to buy into some sort of greater good about more things, rather than glorifying the "you'd have to kill me first" mentality?

it's tough. A default sense of defiance is perhaps even more American than automobiles or suburban sprawl.

humans, animals, we're not meant to be crammed into vertical compartments, surrounded by plastic, metal, and concrete. It works for some, and thats great. Some have no choice, and thats...unfortunate, but at least they have shelter.

As long as I can live free of that confinement I will, we need trees and meadows, and air, and quiet. I won't live in an apartment in the city, its not for me, I won't do it. Right, wrong, agree, disagree. Its a hard line for me personally.

[TDub]

the thing is, if done with some forethought and attention, living rurally can be less impactful than living in many urban locales

how so?

the big obstacle, once again, is transportation, right?

if one wants to live as a hermit on some self-sustaining plot and never go anywhere, sure.

Otherwise, I think of the point about how the urban hipster riding their bike to their coffeeshops and dive bars has a smaller carbon footprint than the "environmentalists" driving their big SUVs from their acreage in the burbs to go fish and ski and recreate in the mountains.

transportation where?

“if one wants to live as a hermit on some self-sustaining plot and never go anywhere, sure.”

the overwhelming majority of people i know that live rurally are very much in this boat (that’s why they live where they do)

i didn’t say it was for everyone. i intentionally stipulated that it would have to be done with forethought and attention in order to be less impactful than living in an urban spot

one wouldn’t have to live absolutely sustainably off their land in order for it to be less impactful than living in most urban places

to this point, albeit without solid tangible stats to point to, I would guess I have a smaller footprint where I live now than most urbanites My consumption of things is less, I grow, raise my own food (obviously not all of it), I drive less than I did when I lived closer to the city, I buy and use and dispose of less material things. I collect rainwater parts of the year. I dont run central air units, I'm not perfect by any means, but if I were put to a guess I would guess I consume less and use less now than I did when I was working in Seattle, and living outside of the city.

[Deleted User 863]

After covid no chance in hell i am living in a large apartment building with shared air/spaces with dozen/hundreds/thousands of people.

[TDub]

lots of oil/petroleum product in asphalt production. Maybe we should go back to gravel/dirt roads.

[ousdahl]

humans, animals, we're not meant to be crammed into vertical compartments, surrounded by plastic, metal, and concrete.

Qusdahl says yer so close!

[ousdahl]

After covid no chance in hell i am living in a large apartment building with shared air/spaces with dozen/hundreds/thousands of people.

again, I get that. I'm the same way.

but at the same time, it just sucks that so many of these conversations end with "just don't expect me to ever change anything about myself or my own lifestyle"

and I can be as guilty as anyone!

[zsn]

is there any data or research to back that up? An elevator pitch's worth of sustainability talking points?

I imagine there's some spectrum of sustainability, right?

"here's the XX things a rural type would have to do to achieve a smaller carbon footprint than XX urbanite," and vice versa

Transportation is only one aspect of the “sustainability” equation. Food production is a huge component. If everyone who normally consumes a farmed deceased animal at every meal opts not to consume farmed carcass parts for at least one day a week or one meal per day it would go a long way, let alone eliminating consuming dead animals.

Also milk does not do the body good, contrary to the ad campaign, because the effects of climate change due to milk production probably offset any health benefits due to milk consumption.

[KUTradition]

is there any data or research to back that up? An elevator pitch's worth of sustainability talking points?

I imagine there's some spectrum of sustainability, right?

"here's the XX things a rural type would have to do to achieve a smaller carbon footprint than XX urbanite," and vice versa

Transportation is only one aspect of the “sustainability” equation. Food production is a huge component. If everyone who normally consumes a farmed deceased animal at every meal opts not to consume farmed carcass parts for at least one day a week or one meal per day it would go a long way, let alone eliminating consuming dead animals.

but there’s also severe disruption/death associated with standard factory farming

this talking point by vegans/vegetarians looses all substance with me if they’re out there buying factory-farmed produce (not accusing you, necessarily)

the only way to truly do it “right”, with as little direct or ancillary impact as possible, is to do it all yourself…hunt, farm, gather…

[TDub]

After covid no chance in hell i am living in a large apartment building with shared air/spaces with dozen/hundreds/thousands of people.

again, I get that. I'm the same way.

but at the same time, it just sucks that so many of these conversations end with "just don't expect me to ever change anything about myself or my own lifestyle"

and I can be as guilty as anyone!

Kinda like the people that say that their vacation flights aren't an issue but fuck your truck?

or, im doing awesome because I bought an EV....even though 62% of our electricity (US) used to charge those vehicles is generated by fossil fuel consumption, and that will increase with the increased demand on the grid?

Can't put the cart before the horse.

[pdub]

"Also milk does not do the body good, contrary to the ad campaign, because the effects of climate change due to milk production probably offset any health benefits due to milk consumption."

This is a stretch.
Along the lines as we don't need cars.
There's a lot of far fetched stuff in here today.

That said, I do think there should be an effort, led by our government, into promoting lower impact living.

[ousdahl]

"Also milk does not do the body good, contrary to the ad campaign, because the effects of climate change due to milk production probably offset any health benefits due to milk consumption."

This is a stretch.
Along the lines as we don't need cars.
There's a lot of far fetched stuff in here today.

That said, I do think there should be an effort, led by our government, into promoting lower impact living.

why not led by markets and such?

[TDub]

is there any data or research to back that up? An elevator pitch's worth of sustainability talking points?

I imagine there's some spectrum of sustainability, right?

"here's the XX things a rural type would have to do to achieve a smaller carbon footprint than XX urbanite," and vice versa

Transportation is only one aspect of the “sustainability” equation. Food production is a huge component. If everyone who normally consumes a farmed deceased animal at every meal opts not to consume farmed carcass parts for at least one day a week or one meal per day it would go a long way, let alone eliminating consuming dead animals.

but there’s also severe disruption/death associated with standard factory farming

this talking point by vegans/vegetarians looses all substance with me if they’re out there buying factory-farmed produce (not accusing you, necessarily)

the only way to truly do it “right”, with as little direct or ancillary impact as possible, is to do it all yourself…hunt, farm, gather…

Like the essential bleaching of the soils? Constant spraying and fertilizing destroying the necessary nematodes?

less fences, more diverse crop production, a more open concept grazing and a step towards regenerative farming practices only benefits everyone....including the farmers wallet when managed efficiently.

We have become a society that is too specialized in industry and in a most general sense.

[KUTradition]

another aspect not yet mentioned (i don’t think), is food waste

somewhere between 30-40% of the food supply in the US gets tossed

and the US is indeed exceptional in this regard (we’re #1, mich), wasting more food than any other country

edit to add: a bit of a juxtaposition when somewhere between 35-50 million of our fellow Americans face food insecurity

[zsn]

Trad: your point on factory farming is quite valid, but we wouldn’t have to produce nearly as much if we (humans) directly consumed the farm products or an immediate product made from them (eg. bread from wheat) rather than introducing another layer. The inefficiency is magnified manifold when we take the grains and feed them to animals, then factory farm those for consumption.

Of course, if we didn’t produce so much food in the first place we wouldn’t be so cavalier about wasting the food

[TDub]

the grain fed to livestock isn't the same as food grade grain for humans....

Unless your point is we should graze more and grain less. Then, yes, we agree. Pasture grasses and wildland native grasses don't require nearly the same amount of maintenance, fertilizer, irrigation and other human imposed damages to the land.

[Deleted User 863]

After covid no chance in hell i am living in a large apartment building with shared air/spaces with dozen/hundreds/thousands of people.

again, I get that. I'm the same way.

but at the same time, it just sucks that so many of these conversations end with "just don't expect me to ever change anything about myself or my own lifestyle"

and I can be as guilty as anyone!

I'll change plenty of my own lifestyle if it will help the environment/humanity. The problem is that I think the risks outweigh the benefits for something like that.

[ousdahl]

what risks outweigh what benefits?