Where's 2023 Rank

[pdub]

In the Self era in terms of a combination of talent ( as a team not individual talent ), success ( i.e. how'd they do during the season ) and combo of both?

Talent ( 10th out of 20 ):
2008, 2020, 2010, 2016, 2011, 2017, 2022, 2007, 2012, 2023, 2018, 2013, 2009, 2006, 2005, 2014, 2015, 2019, 2021, 2004.

Success ( 13th out of 20 ):
2008, 2022, 2012, 2018, 2016, 2017, 2013, 2007, 2020, 2010, 2011, 2009, 2023, 2015, 2014, 2006, 2004, 2005, 2019, 2021.

Combo ( 12th out of 20 ):
2008, 2016, 2022, 2012, 2020, 2017, 2018, 2010, 2011, 2007, 2013, 2023, 2009, 2006, 2015, 2014, 2005, 2004, 2019, 2021.

[pdub]

i.e. for talent, despite 2018 going on a run, I think this 2023 team might be a juuust a bit better, not in individual talent of course, but could beat 2018 in a 7 game series ( 18 could NOT defend worth a poo ).

[randylahey]

Not quite middle of the pack. Not one of selfs bad teams. But one of his worst good ones

[jfish26]

I think it’s in the middle third, for sure. Better than teams that have got farther in the tournament, not as good as ones that lost in the same round. But that’s how the tournament goes.

[Sparko]

I think you left off a key fourth differentiator: depth. And there we see the fragility of the other three. Like a good fan, though, I blame myself. I did not switch hats. The mojo seemed pretty good after the long three. I hadn't realized the fouls would equalize due to optics.

[jhawks99]

If this is a mediocre Bill Self team, we are certainly spoiled.

[pdub]

For this scenario, talent is including depth.
It's just how good the team was ( separate from just wins and trophies ).

[Sparko]

If that is the case, I rank it much lower in fact, and in exceeding expectation much higher. Look at the bench ppg. Pretty depressing. If you take out KJ and Udeh, the team sputtered. They ran at them every possession. Remy was that dude last year in the tourney. This year it was Yes. Not the same production.

[MICHHAWK]

if HCBS was on the bench this past saturday. this team is still dancing.

[jfish26]

if HCBS was on the bench this past saturday. this team is still dancing.

It's hard to disagree.

[pdub]

I have 2022 higher than this year in talent.
I think Udeh, by years end, was a very solid bench player.
Other than that, no, it was pretty rough.

I could see knocking 2023 down a couple below 2018 and 2013 but I think, with Bill Self at the helm, this squad was just a bit better than both.

This team would beat 2009 and 2006 though, for sure.

[Sparko]

I see them as on par with 2013. Missing a piece and having a one and done who could take over a game or disappear.

[pdub]

There are definitely similarities -- but in 2013 we didn't have a guy like Jalen Wilson.
Our best offensive player was our one and done.

Withey was a game changer on defense but I think, as a whole, this team was better defensively.
( of course, depending on matchup )

[jfish26]

I think it's easy to be too negative toward this team in the afterstink of a disappointing loss.

Please don't take this farther than it should be taken, but the difference between this year and last year is that last year's team earned a low 1, and then got the Remy we'd been expecting. Like, if (around Big 12 tournament time) Rice had started to put up freshman Selden production.

[pdub]

I can't agree.

I think senior Ochai was better on both ends of the court than Jalen.
Same with Braun to Gradey.
And then DMac is, as we all know, so underrated on these boreds.

22 wasn't a top 5 Self squad but it ain't far behind for me.
But for sure, Rice doing 5 star recruit stuff would hypothetically have moved it on up - hell, in a hypothetical where Rice is Josh Jackson good, then fine, that's the difference. Freshman Selden? Moves the needle but KU 22 was very good on offense and then, when February and March rolled around, cooking on defense too.

[jfish26]

I can't agree.

I think senior Ochai was better on both ends of the court than Jalen.
Same with Braun to Gradey.
And then DMac is, as we all know, so underrated on these boreds.

22 wasn't a top 5 Self squad but it ain't far behind for me.
But for sure, Rice doing 5 star recruit stuff would hypothetically have moved it on up - hell, in a hypothetical where Rice is Josh Jackson good, then fine, that's the difference. Freshman Selden? Moves the needle but KU 22 was very good on offense and then, when February and March rolled around, cooking on defense too.

My personal opinion is that, without the Remy who showed up (for the first time, really) in March, a series between 2022 and 2023 would go to six or seven games.

It's not a very satisfying answer, but sometimes weird shit happens. I don't think anyone would seriously argue that 2022 was the best team in the country. I don't think anyone would seriously argue that 2023 was not one of the 16 best teams in country. And yet.

[TDub]

I have 2022 higher than this year in talent.
I think Udeh, by years end, was a very solid bench player.
Other than that, no, it was pretty rough.

I could see knocking 2023 down a couple below 2018 and 2013 but I think, with Bill Self at the helm, this squad was just a bit better than both.

This team would beat 2009 and 2006 though, for sure.

when you say 2018 do you mean 2018-2019?

because this team i think is definetely below 2018.

Our post play wasnt terrific...but we had Svi, Devonte and a streaking Malik Newman.

[Sparko]

This team's ceiling was at Columbia early on. Its last two weeks were lacking the energy Self demands. So we will never know. But who could imagine a top 10 level team suddenly healthy and way underseeded? Gosh. Such bad luck. Like possession clocks that reset even before a basket, nothing to do but play along. And Alabama of all teams rumbles unmolested. The NCAA sucks thread seems pretty tame.

[pdub]

I have 2022 higher than this year in talent.
I think Udeh, by years end, was a very solid bench player.
Other than that, no, it was pretty rough.

I could see knocking 2023 down a couple below 2018 and 2013 but I think, with Bill Self at the helm, this squad was just a bit better than both.

This team would beat 2009 and 2006 though, for sure.

when you say 2018 do you mean 2018-2019?

because this team i think is definetely below 2018.

Our post play wasnt terrific...but we had Svi, Devonte and a streaking Malik Newman.

2018 with Svi, Vonte and Malik.
And no defense.
The Final Four run boosts that squad up in people's minds - but that Seton Hall matchup was perfect for us and Clemson was kinda overrated. They are high up in my success rankings but not as much in the talent rankings.

Like I said, I could see those 3 teams being switched around but for me, i'd take this squad in game 7.
This team also didn't have much of a post game but were perhaps Self's best perimeter defending team.

18 finished with 8 looses as well. And had their share of blowouts to even lesser teams than Texas ( Oklahoma State! ). Then of course, were dismantled by the best team in the land in the tourney.

[ousdahl]

I think 18 would best this year's squad, for sure.

You're forgetting Devonte was at least as good a floor general as Dajuan, but he had a jumper too

The biggest difference between Malik and Gradey was, March

McCullar was more solid and better defender but low ceiling. Vick was way more explosive but also might go Laura Bauer

Jalen and Svi would be fun, but the nod goes to the AA...this is the one matchup I'm most confident giving to 23, but it's still actually close, cuz senior Svi wasn't exactly chopped liver

now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go belly laugh while I think about this year's frontcourt against Dok.

both benches kinda sucked, but this comparison prob goes to 18 too, cuz the only bench player from either squad to do much of anything in March was Silvio.

in conclusion, while 23 might have been better defensively, I think 18 had the star power, better assembled lineup, key pieces in key roles...it was an AA point guard and an elite post, surrounded by athletic shooters.

but ask me again in 5 years, I guess.