Taiwan

[ousdahl]

Where have I heard this one before?

https://twitter.com/wsj/status/1446109997847416835?s=21

[ousdahl]

Watcha doin Pelosi?

[jhawks99]

The first time I heard about this I thought, why provoke China, what's the point? Then I read where she's been there before as well as other members of Congress and China didn't make a stink about it.

Someone said that when an American leader is told they can't go somewhere, they have an obligation to go. You go, Nancy.

[twocoach]

Multiple US officials visited Taiwan in 2020. China is just making a fuss. We don't need them telling us where we can and cannot go and they aren't going to kick off a war for it. Proceed as planned.

[ousdahl]

I lean “why provoke China, what’s the point?”

Which is an extension of the grander ideal of, avoid WW3 at all costs

But I also realize the Merican gummint and plenty of Merican people too would be positively giddy to go to war with anyone and everyone, and especially China…gross

If we told some Chinese politician not to come here and they came here anyway, I don’t think it would be a good idea either.

[twocoach]

I lean “why provoke China, what’s the point?”

Which is an extension of the grander ideal of, avoid WW3 at all costs

But I also realize the Merican gummint and plenty of Merican people too would be positively giddy to go to war with anyone and everyone, and especially China…gross

If we told some Chinese politician not to come here and they came here anyway, I don’t think it would be a good idea either.

This isn't anything provocative. China is just choosing to fuss about it.

[ousdahl]

So if China sent some politician here even after we said not to, would you still say it isn’t anything provocative and Merica is just choosing to fuss about it?

[KUTradition]

except Taiwan isn’t part of China (edit: learned something new about the nuances…they are and they aren’t. it’s complicated)

a better example would be Puerto Rico…but even that is a failed comparison since Taiwan doesn’t want to be part of China but Puerto Rico continues vying for statehood

just curious Ousie, but at what point should the US intervene in global affairs? do we have to wait for another Pearl Harbor for it to be justifiable in your mind?

[ousdahl]

Yea, Taiwan is complicated.

The Taiwanese government has operated separately from the mainland since nationalists fled there after losing the civil war to communists in 1949. Thirty years later, the U.S. switched diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing, adopting what's known as the "One China" policy, in which Washington acknowledges Beijing's position that Taiwan is a part of China. However, the U.S. has never supported China's claim of sovereignty over Taiwan and maintains a substantial, though unofficial, relationship with the island.

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/02/11148527 ... a-big-deal

(lots of other good context in this article too)

[ousdahl]

let's try Puerto Rico as an example though:

Indeed, it's a failed comparison...but if the Chinese were suddenly sending leaders there, and the Puerto Rican gummint was giving them all this recognition and stuff, you think Merica would be saying shit like "we're just making a fuss, this isn't anything provocative, we don't need us telling them where they can and cannot go."

IMHO it would go a lot more like Russia Cuba shit. We'd freak the fuck out! and, it very well may be the thee best way to get Puerto Rican statehood. (could you imagine the paradoxical Qusdahl headlines like "China is making Puerto Rico more democratic")

regarding Merica intervening in global affairs - if it's humanitarian, intervene away. Part of me thinks all that Merican taxpayer money should go to the benefit of Merican taxpayers first, but part of me thinks all people are people and at least someone is benefitting. if the intervention is militant, I'm not sure any is ever really justifiable. And if you think it is, then please answer whether you're personally willing to go fight too.

regarding Pearl Harbor, that was a a tragedy. But, part of the narrative that we just don't get is, would Pearl Harbor have ever happened if not for decades of Merican warmongering in the Pacific to begin with? What was THAT all about? Forgive me if I struggle to accept the world view that these things happen in a vacuum.

[KUTradition]

what war mongering in the Pacific are you referring to, specifically?

[ousdahl]

The whole reason the US had any presence in Hawaii in the first place was cuz of a coup in 1893. Congress apologized for it in 1993.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow ... an_Kingdom

We'd also did plenty of fighting over the Philippines, including fighting with Spain about them, and also with them? Apparently they tried to declare their own independence but we refused to acknowledge and annexed them instead, and ultimately didn't cede sovereignty until 1946

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine–American_War

and the relations leading up to Pearl Harbor between Japan and the US specifically

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Events_le ... arl_Harbor

I think the bigger culprit is not necessarily one nation or the other, but colonial imperialism as a whole

[twocoach]

So if China sent some politician here even after we said not to, would you still say it isn’t anything provocative and Merica is just choosing to fuss about it?

As with most everything, it depends on the circumstances surrounding it.

[twocoach]

let's try Puerto Rico as an example though:

Indeed, it's a failed comparison...but if the Chinese were suddenly sending leaders there, and the Puerto Rican gummint was giving them all this recognition and stuff, you think Merica would be saying shit like "we're just making a fuss, this isn't anything provocative, we don't need us telling them where they can and cannot go."

IMHO it would go a lot more like Russia Cuba shit. We'd freak the fuck out! and, it very well may be the thee best way to get Puerto Rican statehood. (could you imagine the paradoxical Qusdahl headlines like "China is making Puerto Rico more democratic")

regarding Merica intervening in global affairs - if it's humanitarian, intervene away. Part of me thinks all that Merican taxpayer money should go to the benefit of Merican taxpayers first, but part of me thinks all people are people and at least someone is benefitting. if the intervention is militant, I'm not sure any is ever really justifiable. And if you think it is, then please answer whether you're personally willing to go fight too.

regarding Pearl Harbor, that was a a tragedy. But, part of the narrative that we just don't get is, would Pearl Harbor have ever happened if not for decades of Merican warmongering in the Pacific to begin with? What was THAT all about? Forgive me if I struggle to accept the world view that these things happen in a vacuum.

How you manage to spray so many different topics into just a few paragraphs is truly a unique skill.

[ousdahl]

Yea. Thanks, I think.

Global politics is totally fucked.

[KUTradition]

The whole reason the US had any presence in Hawaii in the first place was cuz of a coup in 1893. Congress apologized for it in 1993.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow ... an_Kingdom

We'd also did plenty of fighting over the Philippines, including fighting with Spain about them, and also with them? Apparently they tried to declare their own independence but we refused to acknowledge and annexed them instead, and ultimately didn't cede sovereignty until 1946

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine–American_War

and the relations leading up to Pearl Harbor between Japan and the US specifically

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Events_le ... arl_Harbor

I think the bigger culprit is not necessarily one nation or the other, but colonial imperialism as a whole

thanks, JimWest

i agree that colonial imperialism has and continues to be an enormous issue globally…that’s as far as i’ll go

as per the norm, you’re connecting all sorts of, at best, tangentially-related dots in order support your anti-imperialism mantra

my understanding of the major motivation for Pearl Harbor was Japan’s thirst for oil to feed/fuel their own war-mongering (quite literally) empire. the US crippled Japan’s war machine after they invaded the SE Asian mainland by halting oil sales (non-military means first…kinda like Ukraine, huh?). Pearl Harbor was a direct response, and an attempt to get the US to negotiate peace and submit to Japan’s imperial will

[ousdahl]

Wait, how’d you know I’m drinking a single malt right now?

[zsn]

It’s about time that someone from one of the branches of our government told the Beijing government to pound sand.

[ousdahl]

now THAT is nuanced foreign policy