Let’s have a war!

[jfish26]

Never in a million years did I imagine I’d have to explain to you guys why Nazis might be a problem.

but why specifically those in Ukraine, right now?

Look, I think we're in universal agreement that the dogs with bees in their mouth and when they bark, they shoot bees at you, are a fucking scourge.

[Qusdahl]

Ok, thanks, yeah, that is something.

Was the escalation of civil war in Ukraine an acceptable collateral damage?

And this is hardly the first time Russia and Ukraine have fought. Why’d we get so involved now?

Civil war? Are you posting from Leningrad? The hell is going on.

Are you familiar with Rand.org?

Wiki says it’s “an American nonprofit global policy think tank created in 1948 by Douglas aircraft company to offer research and analysis to the United States Armed Forces.”

Which is to say, I’m skeptical. I dunno if it’s a legit source or not.

But RationalDC, of all people just here to help, just pm’d me this link:

https://www.rand.org/blog/2022/01/us-mi ... ullet.html

Since 2014, the United States has provided over $2.5 billion in military aid to Ukraine, following the Russian annexation of Crimea and invasion of the Donbass. U.S. assistance to Ukraine has included the provision of trainers, selected defensive systems (such as counter-mortar radars), and more recently, Javelin anti-tank missiles. This assistance has principally aimed to improve Ukrainian effectiveness in the relatively static conflict against Russian-backed separatist forces in the Donbass, who are mainly armed with small arms and light weapons, along with some artillery and Soviet-era armor.

Crucially, however, Ukraine has mainly not been fighting Russia's armed forces in the Donbass. Yes, Russia has armed, trained, and led the separatist forces. But even by Kyiv's own estimates, the vast majority of rebel forces consist of locals—not soldiers of the regular Russian military. Indeed, the Russian armed forces engaged directly in the fighting only twice—in August–September 2014 and January–February 2015—and with limited capabilities, although both episodes ended in crushing Ukrainian defeats.

The article appears to cite some Ukrainian link as its source.

So Ukrainians fighting other “local” Ukrainians by a “vast majority” (their words)…is it fair to call that a Ukrainian civil war?

In some part instigated, and/or escalated, by Russian and US/NATO forces by proxy, with Russia also being dicks and directly intervening a few times, which I again would like to condemn, and mention Fuck You Putin…

[KUTradition]

Never in a million years did I imagine I’d have to explain to you guys why Nazis might be a problem.

but why specifically those in Ukraine, right now?

Look, I think we're in universal agreement that the dogs with bees in their mouth and when they bark, they shoot bees at you, are a fucking scourge.

yes

yet several dozen pages later, we seem to be right back where we started

[KUTradition]

Ok, thanks, yeah, that is something.

Was the escalation of civil war in Ukraine an acceptable collateral damage?

And this is hardly the first time Russia and Ukraine have fought. Why’d we get so involved now?

Civil war? Are you posting from Leningrad? The hell is going on.

Are you familiar with Rand.org?

Wiki says it’s “an American nonprofit global policy think tank created in 1948 by Douglas aircraft company to offer research and analysis to the United States Armed Forces.”

Which is to say, I’m skeptical. I dunno if it’s a legit source or not.

But RationalDC, of all people just here to help, just pm’d me this link:

https://www.rand.org/blog/2022/01/us-mi ... ullet.html

Since 2014, the United States has provided over $2.5 billion in military aid to Ukraine, following the Russian annexation of Crimea and invasion of the Donbass. U.S. assistance to Ukraine has included the provision of trainers, selected defensive systems (such as counter-mortar radars), and more recently, Javelin anti-tank missiles. This assistance has principally aimed to improve Ukrainian effectiveness in the relatively static conflict against Russian-backed separatist forces in the Donbass, who are mainly armed with small arms and light weapons, along with some artillery and Soviet-era armor.

Crucially, however, Ukraine has mainly not been fighting Russia's armed forces in the Donbass. Yes, Russia has armed, trained, and led the separatist forces. But even by Kyiv's own estimates, the vast majority of rebel forces consist of locals—not soldiers of the regular Russian military. Indeed, the Russian armed forces engaged directly in the fighting only twice—in August–September 2014 and January–February 2015—and with limited capabilities, although both episodes ended in crushing Ukrainian defeats.

The article appears to cite some Ukrainian link as its source.

So Ukrainians fighting other “local” Ukrainians by a “vast majority” (their words)…is it fair to call that a Ukrainian civil war?

In some part instigated, and/or escalated, by Russian and US/NATO forces by proxy, with Russia also being dicks and directly intervening a few times, which I again would like to condemn, and mention Fuck You Putin…

what’s your point?

edit: russia’s dabbling has been anything but by proxy

i guess you didn’t take the time to look into russia’s own paramilitary neo-nazi groups

oh well

[Qusdahl]

Never in a million years did I imagine I’d have to explain to you guys why Nazis might be a problem.

but why specifically those in Ukraine, right now?

…my concern is, whether, or rather to what degree, the Ukrainians who get our guns may be some kinda far right ethnic-supremacists who are using them to commit genocide and various other war crimes against other Ukrainians.

Now, yes, there’s some question of whether, or to what degree, it’s happening; and whether it’s all just more Russian propaganda.

But, again, Russian propaganda can be bullshit, and Nazis can still be a problem either way. There’s been enough sources suggesting it besides sources straight from Putin’s mouth.

And as scaru as Russian propaganda may be, I’m also scared of how many of you guys don’t even seem to have considered how much western pro-war propaganda we’re inevitably exposed to right now, and grew up consuming.

The solution, I think, is less a “good guy bad guy pick a side” kinda thing, and more a “be skeptical, be objective, open yourself to the idea that the truth is inevitably in the middle” kinda thing.

And for the love of Jah, stop gaslighting anyone who deviates with your views! (Just generally speaking)

[Qusdahl]

Civil war? Are you posting from Leningrad? The hell is going on.

Are you familiar with Rand.org?

Wiki says it’s “an American nonprofit global policy think tank created in 1948 by Douglas aircraft company to offer research and analysis to the United States Armed Forces.”

Which is to say, I’m skeptical. I dunno if it’s a legit source or not.

But RationalDC, of all people just here to help, just pm’d me this link:

https://www.rand.org/blog/2022/01/us-mi ... ullet.html

Since 2014, the United States has provided over $2.5 billion in military aid to Ukraine, following the Russian annexation of Crimea and invasion of the Donbass. U.S. assistance to Ukraine has included the provision of trainers, selected defensive systems (such as counter-mortar radars), and more recently, Javelin anti-tank missiles. This assistance has principally aimed to improve Ukrainian effectiveness in the relatively static conflict against Russian-backed separatist forces in the Donbass, who are mainly armed with small arms and light weapons, along with some artillery and Soviet-era armor.

Crucially, however, Ukraine has mainly not been fighting Russia's armed forces in the Donbass. Yes, Russia has armed, trained, and led the separatist forces. But even by Kyiv's own estimates, the vast majority of rebel forces consist of locals—not soldiers of the regular Russian military. Indeed, the Russian armed forces engaged directly in the fighting only twice—in August–September 2014 and January–February 2015—and with limited capabilities, although both episodes ended in crushing Ukrainian defeats.

The article appears to cite some Ukrainian link as its source.

So Ukrainians fighting other “local” Ukrainians by a “vast majority” (their words)…is it fair to call that a Ukrainian civil war?

In some part instigated, and/or escalated, by Russian and US/NATO forces by proxy, with Russia also being dicks and directly intervening a few times, which I again would like to condemn, and mention Fuck You Putin…

what’s your point?

edit: russia’s dabbling has been anything but by proxy

i guess you didn’t take the time to look into russia’s own paramilitary neo-nazi groups

oh well

Care to share any info about Russian neo nazi paramilitary groups?

Cuz fuck them too.

[Qusdahl]

Never in a million years did I imagine I’d have to explain to you guys why Nazis might be a problem.

who's arguing otherwise?

Maybe we quit making up stories about nazis as a justification?

[Wiff]

[Qusdahl]

Fuck you Wiff!

Sorry, thought this was the QT thread.

[KUTradition]

Are you familiar with Rand.org?

Wiki says it’s “an American nonprofit global policy think tank created in 1948 by Douglas aircraft company to offer research and analysis to the United States Armed Forces.”

Which is to say, I’m skeptical. I dunno if it’s a legit source or not.

But RationalDC, of all people just here to help, just pm’d me this link:

https://www.rand.org/blog/2022/01/us-mi ... ullet.html



The article appears to cite some Ukrainian link as its source.

So Ukrainians fighting other “local” Ukrainians by a “vast majority” (their words)…is it fair to call that a Ukrainian civil war?

In some part instigated, and/or escalated, by Russian and US/NATO forces by proxy, with Russia also being dicks and directly intervening a few times, which I again would like to condemn, and mention Fuck You Putin…

what’s your point?

edit: russia’s dabbling has been anything but by proxy

i guess you didn’t take the time to look into russia’s own paramilitary neo-nazi groups

oh well

Care to share any info about Russian neo nazi paramilitary groups?

Cuz fuck them too.

lol…do your own, balanced research

i gave you a good place to start already. if you truly care about some sort of middle truth, try looking deeper than your leftist twitter handles

your obsession with Ukrainian neo-nazis, to the detriment of that middle truth is odd. there is no genocide in Ukraine, nor has there been…despite what putin would tell you. the violence in the Donbas region over the past 8 years, with concerning actions by both pro-Russian and pro-Ukrainian forces, does not constitute genocide, and i’ve yet to see any evidence from putin or anyone else that supports such claims

russia just so happened to abstain from UN hearings on the supposed genocide just a couple days ago. i wonder why that is? but i guess maybe the UN is just a shill for the US, right?

[KUTradition]

the quote i posted in the Arms thread seems apt

we can either provide arms to the Ukrainians and run the risk (of unknown severity) of them falling into the hands of unsavory Ukrainian factions, or we can do nothing and allow putin to take control of Ukraine and gain more power

which would you prefer, ousie, given putin’s history and supposed aspirations?

edit: and related, if we didn’t/don’t provide arms to Ukraine, i could almost guarantee that the UK would

[sdoyel]

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/15016810 ... 8lAoPlk9tw

[TDub]

Never in a million years did I imagine I’d have to explain to you guys why Nazis might be a problem.

who's arguing otherwise?

Maybe we quit making up stories about nazis as a justification?

As justification for invasion....and indiscriminate bombing of civilians

comeon dude...youre not this dense.

[KUTradition]

apparently, it wasn’t just a children’s hospital that was hit, but an actual maternity one, with children, infants and expectant mothers

fucking tragic

[PhDhawk]

There hasn't been an invasion of a country by another country in like 5 years.

And this situation is closer to the US joining WWII than it is an example of policing the world.

Did you support Hitler's attempt to conquer europe as much as you do Putin's? Should we have just minded out business while he invaded Poland and France? I mean...we kinda did at first and it had disastrous consequences.

What constitutes “invasion?” Only boots on the ground? Does bombing count too?

And I’m so disappointed I really still have to keep doing this, but:

I don’t support Putin’s bullshit here. Not one bit! Fuck him. And fuck Hitler and fuck Nazis.

by definition...yeah, that's what an invasion is.

But I'm sure there were a lot of shitty Jews in that 10 million that got exterminated. I mean, by your logic, they kinda had it coming, and Hitler was justified.

[PhDhawk]

apparently, it wasn’t just a children’s hospital that was hit, but an actual maternity one, with children, infants and expectant mothers

fucking tragic

How many of those were the children of nazis though. Kinda gotta think they had it coming and that Russia was justified, you know, to end naziism and all. cause fuck nazi babies.

Am I doing this right?

[PhDhawk]

Never in a million years did I imagine I’d have to explain to you guys why Nazis might be a problem.

but why specifically those in Ukraine, right now?

…my concern is, whether, or rather to what degree, the Ukrainians who get our guns may be some kinda far right ethnic-supremacists who are using them to commit genocide and various other war crimes against other Ukrainians.

Now, yes, there’s some question of whether, or to what degree, it’s happening; and whether it’s all just more Russian propaganda.

But, again, Russian propaganda can be bullshit, and Nazis can still be a problem either way. There’s been enough sources suggesting it besides sources straight from Putin’s mouth.

And as scaru as Russian propaganda may be, I’m also scared of how many of you guys don’t even seem to have considered how much western pro-war propaganda we’re inevitably exposed to right now, and grew up consuming.

The solution, I think, is less a “good guy bad guy pick a side” kinda thing, and more a “be skeptical, be objective, open yourself to the idea that the truth is inevitably in the middle” kinda thing.

And for the love of Jah, stop gaslighting anyone who deviates with your views! (Just generally speaking)

At least we have a free press. They might be inept, they might have their biases, but at least they don't need approval before airing things, at least they should feel free to criticize our gov't decisions.

'It's a tragedy we are witnessing'
How Putin killed off Russia's free press
https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/09/media/ru ... index.html

[NewtonHawk11]

apparently, it wasn’t just a children’s hospital that was hit, but an actual maternity one, with children, infants and expectant mothers

fucking tragic

How many of those were the children of nazis though. Kinda gotta think they had it coming and that Russia was justified, you know, to end naziism and all. cause fuck nazi babies.

Am I doing this right?

Close enough

[Qusdahl]

The fact you guys can’t tell a difference between an objective criticism of war, and “just taking sides with the bad guys,” says a lot.

Please consider how a lifetime of war-normalizing (and in particular, Russia-vilifying) media rhetoric has conditioned your mindsets right now. I really don’t get why you’re so determined to paint me as a Russia supporter. It’s almost like you can’t help it.

And fwiw I hope I can say that constructively, and without being antagonistic.

[twocoach]

The fact you guys can’t tell a difference between an objective criticism of war, and “just taking sides with the bad guys,” says a lot.

Please consider how a lifetime of war-normalizing (and in particular, Russia-vilifying) media rhetoric has conditioned your mindsets right now. I really don’t get why you’re so determined to paint me as a Russia supporter. It’s almost like you can’t help it.

And fwiw I hope I can say that constructively, and without being antagonistic.

My issues with Russia are based on decades of interaction with Russian athletes who left Russia to come to America. It comes from conversations with a skater whose apartment in Russia was bombed because she wasn't paying the Russian mob enough money from what she earned performing in the US. It comes from Russian friends who had to give a large chunk of their revenue on apartments they owned in Moscow to the Russian mob. It comes from a decade of competing against Russian skaters who openly discussed being drugged by the government-run athletic organizations that paid for every portion of their lives.

My desire to stop Russia from eradicating Ukraine from the map isn't because of any "war-normalizing" or "Russia-vilifying" propaganda from western media. It is because what they are doing is fundamentally evil. I get that you are trying to shine a light on ALL evil but it is simply not possible without diluting the conversation to the point of being pointless. You can always widen the scope of your search to find more corruption and evil, especially in that part of the world where corruption is not only tolerated but expected and celebrated.

At this point, it just feels like you're going all-in on this because you don't believe you're wrong and won't let it go. You aren't wrong, being a scumbag Nazi is a bad thing. You aren't wrong that some of the weapons that we sell to foreign nations ends up in the hands of scumbags. We get it. But how much longer are you going to keep this up? Putin bombed a freaking maternity ward of a hospital and we're sitting here blabbering about this nonsense for the umpteenth day in a row.